Oldest Widecase?

[dukesports]

G’day guys,

Only recently found this forum….fantastic, I think I’m in the right place.

I own what I believe is one of the oldest wide-case machines remaining, a 1967 SCR engine number 05129.
This wears the earlier style body from the narrow-case SCR. It appears to be as depicted on pages 302-305 of the Ducati Wide Case Parts Catalogue EXCEPT (it’s a big except) there is no lower rear frame loop.

I’ve since found a photo a bike with this frame on page 70 of Mick Walkers “Ducati Singles” where he describes it as a “Widecase Prototype” and noted in the text that the very first W/C were SCRs. My bike looks identical to the (unfortunately monochrome) page 70 shot.

When I acquired it in 1995 Ian Gowanloch told me that he believed it was from a batch of something less than 50 (but could be 70 bikes) world-wide, many of which came to Australia and he described it as a “Widecase Prototype”. He told me then that he was only aware of 2 others – one being his own in pieces and theorised most had succumbed to junk piles, race bikes or parts. So Prototype or Factory Quick-Fix Cobble?

Aside from the frame, there is also anomaly with the paint. As found it had original paint and decals on tank but hand (brush!) painted red frame/headlight ears and black guards. I began restoration in 1995 and had the bike professionally painted by a Ducatisti. He could not find the expected silver under the brush work on guards and headlight ears, but instead unearthed an off-white that sure as heck looked like the factory put it there. FYI, Gowie said he thought the off-white paint could be correct because they slapped the bikes together from whatever they had around – production bodywork was n/a and the cash-registers still needed turnover. (His was v/sad living in the ceiling space of his Belmore shop and had silver from memory). So we reproduced what looked like the orig off-white colour.....

The bike was showing 748 miles when found and has the original crankcase seal on it. A head-off inspection suggested that this is probably correct.
But this isn’t just a brag…I need some help. The bike got to 99.9% complete and then other projects diverted my interests…for about 10 years. I’ve tinkered and turned it over every 6 mths, but little more than that. I now want to resolve the following:

1) Does anyone out there have any further knowledge about this bike?

2) What are your thoughts on the authenticity of the mudguard paint colour?

3) Note the mudguards are the square-edge type 0689.67.200 and 0689.72.200 and had no decals (correct according to manual). Should these have pin striping? What colour?

4) The tail light bracket does not appear correct for this model. Catalogue says 0622.74.103 or 0622.74.113. Anyone know the difference between these part numbers? Anyone know where I can get one? Can anyone identify the taillight bracket that is on it?

5) I need to acquire the correct (or suitable replacement) rubber for between the frame-spine and the tank. I’ve been confused by this bike and don’t know if I need 0687.83.030 “Buffer” or 0440.83.030. I think it should be 030. Can anyone provide specs for this part, like dimensions and material characteristics? The drawing makes it look thin, but I’ve got carb clearance issues (see 6 below)

6) I’ve had on-going dramas fitting the air-filter and carb cable seems to foul the tank. I believe I may have the incorrect manifold. Drawing in manual appears straight manifold, but mine is kinked a little down (which would give better clearance than straight?). The air filter fouls on the RH rear frame member (just won’t fit) and the carb is very, very close to tank. Correct manifold should be 0610.82.570. Any ideas?

7) Another source of frustration is the lock-stops on the front end. It’s a 35mm Mazz set up. Looks exactly as you think it should from the photos, but the lock-stops (item 240 on page 162) comes to rest on the frame at it’s locks, with no paint protection or striker. It just looks wrong,I've put rubber bump stop son the end of mine. Does anyone have close-up photos of the lower-rear headstock area showing the alignment of the lock-stops to the frame?

8) Still on the front end, the top on the fork gators appear to be clamped to a rubber(?) part 0689.37.220 – “Grooved Ring”. Can anyone provide source or specs for 2 of these?

9) The seat appears is in very good possibly orig condition, but appears incorrect, possibly off a Monza. Any ideas on correctness of seat? Any ideas as to sources for the correct seat?

10) I’m not happy with the pin-striping and/or the whole paint job is a bit storage-tatty. Does anyone have some photos of this tank style/colour in VG orig condition or very orig recreation for reference use?

Well, I’m tired from typing all that, but there’s probably enough anorak work in this lot to keep the list buzzing for a while!! Thanks for your patience, and thanks in advance for your assistance.

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DSCF1987.JPG

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IMG_3452Mark in the Shed.jpg

cheers

Mark Plummer, Sydney Australia
’62 Ducati DM250/350 N/C Race Bike (ex Phil Hitchcock)
’67 Ducati DM350SCR Prototype
??? DucatiDM250M3 in lumps
'7? Ducati 5hp 2-stroke Outboard
’82 Honda CT110 Dual Range
’84 Ducati MHR Mille
’94 Honda CT110 beach cruiser (black, bobbed, whitewalls, totally silly but best pub bike around!)
’03 BMW1150GS
’04 Aprilia RS125

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ I've just approved your submitted thread-post,
welcome as our newest member !
__ Sorry for the delay but, my internet-connection has been on & off a lot lately !
Hopefully I can get done with my posting before too long !



[quote= dukesports ...
" Only recently found this forum…. "

____ For what reason(s) do you happen to account for that ? _ And how did you finally discover us ?



" I own what I believe is one of the oldest wide-case machines remaining, a 1967 SCR engine number 05129. "

____ I also have (most of) one of these w-c.350Scr.models as well.



" This wears the earlier style body from the narrow-case SCR. "

____ These 1967 w-c.Scrambler-models also employ the same entire electrical-system of the 1966 250Scrambler-model as well, (which includes a battery, but no regulator-unit) !



" It appears to be as depicted on pages 302-305 of the Ducati Wide Case Parts Catalogue EXCEPT (it’s a big except) there is no lower rear frame loop. "

____ That frame-feature is standard-issue for all 1967 250 & 350 w-c.Scrambler-models !
So it's really not such a "big" exception (for a w-c.model) as you've thought.
__ Those rather light w-c.frames suffered from down-tube cracking (on both sides) within an inch of their welds to the rear motor-mount plates,, (thus the reason for the missing lower frame "loop" on either side, added onto post-67 w-c.models) !



" I’ve since found a photo a bike with this frame on page 70 of Mick Walkers “Ducati Singles” where he describes it as a “Widecase Prototype”
When I acquired it in 1995 Ian Gowanloch told me that he believed it was from a batch of something less than 50 (but could be 70 bikes) world-wide, many of which came to Australia and he described it as a “Widecase Prototype”.
So Prototype or Factory Quick-Fix Cobble?

____ Sorry to burst-the-bubble, but since yours seems to be the same as most-all other 1967-Scrambler models,, it's no-doubt not a "Prototype", but rather merely-just a standard-production model (just-like all others of the same) !
Of-course I hate to contradict M.Walker but, such a 'WideCase-Prototype' wouldn't appear so identical to the std.production models, unless it also was rather a 'Show-bike' (intended for a major pre-1967 new-model 'Presentation Showing').
Also, I'm very quite sure that well over at-least 300 of such models were produced. _ (As I believe that other model production-runs with higher production-quantities than that, never even earned presentation within any parts-books, [let-alone a 'prototype' !] ).



" could not find the expected silver under the brush work on guards and headlight ears, but instead unearthed an off-white that sure as heck looked like the factory put it there. "

____ I believe the (slightly grayish) "off-white" was actually the base-coat/primer-finish, as I'm fairly sure that the HL.ears were black-finished and the mudguard/fenders were a med.light-gray (but not the usual 'silver' [as on n-c.models] ).



" Gowie said he thought the off-white paint could be correct because they slapped the bikes together from whatever they had around – production bodywork was n/a "

____ Fortunately Duke-single models made for the USA didn't suffer from any such clues, as they all pretty-much stayed loyal to that of the parts-books !



" 1) Does anyone out there have any further knowledge about this bike? "

____ Yes, I do ! _ And I'm sure at-least one-other of us (registered here) does as well.
There's also been some past posts concerning these original w-c.models too.



" 2) What are your thoughts on the authenticity of the mudguard paint colour?
3) Note the mudguards are the square-edge type
and had no decals
Should these have pin striping? "

____ I've only ever personally-seen just three or four of these 1967 w-c.models, and all (which weren't repainted) had the bright-gray railed-edge type fenders without any stripes !



" 4) The tail light bracket does not appear correct for this model. "

____ Your taillight-assembly appears to be the 'Made for USA' model, and seems 'correct' to me.



" Catalogue says 0622.74.103 or 0622.74.113. Anyone know the difference between these part numbers? "

____ Without looking at a parts-book, if those are the part-#s for the TL.brackets,, then my guess is that one is the type that only attaches to just the fender (with two pairs of 6mm-fasteners), while the other/Scr.type's upper-forward mount attaches directly to the rear frame-loop (with one 6mm-bolt).



" Can anyone identify the taillight bracket that is on it? "

____ Can't see it (as is) well enough !
If it includes a mounting directly onto the frame-tubing, then it's as stock !



" 5) I need to acquire the correct (or suitable replacement) rubber for between the frame-spine and the tank.
Can anyone provide specs for this part, like dimensions and material characteristics?

"

____ It should be as a foam-rubber sponge, (not too soft, compressing-down to no less than 50%, with a full-tank),, and measuring near 6x3.5x.75 inches, (a little larger should still work, [perhaps even better] ).



" The drawing makes it look thin, "

____ Yes, I recall that ! _ I believe the depiction was a copy-over from a n-c.Motocross drawing before the piece* was updated.
(* I believe two layers (of that inner-tube like rubber-piece) were at some time once installed on n-c.Scr-models by the factory.)



" 6)
I believe I may have the incorrect manifold. Drawing in manual appears straight manifold, but mine is kinked a little down (which would give better clearance than straight?). "

____ I suspect that you still have the stock manifold, as the depiction of the straight-manifold is yet another 'copy-over' from an older drawing.
The added elbow-arc in your manifold is for holding the carb-body at a better compromised angle for clearance considerations.
__ Got any pix showing your particular filter-body clearance issues ?



" 9) The seat appears
incorrect, possibly off a Monza. Any ideas on correctness of seat? "

____ It looks to be the original seat to me, and certainly NOT that of any Monza !
What leads you to suspect it may-not be correct ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[LaceyDucati]

Hello Mark,

Welcome to the forum.

I've got best part of one of these early SCR's, a 250 waiting for restoration. I also have a new old stock front mudguard which is silver and lacquered, there is no pinstriping, only a small Ducati transfer on the front. Looking at any brochures and pictures I have seen, I thought the headlamp ears were silver as the mudguards. The tank on mine appears to have the original paint which is very thin and metallic red, with silver insets. The paint on the underneath and the filler neck, looks only as original 60's factory metallic paint could be. Sort of a mid red, not dark like the following mark 3's. I guess there may have been a few colour choices, but the parts book I don't think specifies. The seat on your bike looks original to me and is one of the only parts I have missing! Anyone with an original that they want to part with let me know!

The forks and shocks were originally gaitered and obviously the bike originally had standard Scrambler bars (as you probably know!) and a kicked up down pipe similar to the narrowcase forerunner. Anyway the bike looks good whatever

Best Wishes Nigel

[joe46ho]

As Nigel said, that seat is original. Its also pretty unique and hard to find, that being said...
Nigel I have an all original seat like this you can have, its not perfect but its all there and very restorable. Postage may be a little pricey sending it from the USA to you in the UK, but as long as you pay me back for the postage its yours... PM me
Joe

[joe46ho]

One other unique thing about these early scramblers is that, not only where the external electrics "borrowed" from the 1966 nc scrs, but so was the actual stator and charging rotor, which make the engine cases different also, but you can easily redrill them for a w/c stator (the 4 casting bosses are there but are not drilled) this is a minor difference but worth mentioning, because these engines can use any of the several charging systems that where employed on the n/c engines, and the w/c engines...

Here is a pic of my cases (1967 250 scr serial #104774)

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= LaceyDucati ...
" I also have a new old stock front mudguard which is silver and lacquered, "

____ Nigel, is the "silver" the exact same-old silver-color Ducati used on most-all n-c.models, or is it a somewhat different 'silver' that's rather more like a bright-gray ?
My-own recollection is that the silver-color of those odd w-c.fenders is-not quite as silver-looking as the old/regular* 'silver' of round-style n-c.fenders, and instead more of a plain/smooth non-metallic light/bright solid-gray, (rather than the regular-silver [* which looks more like an extra-fine metallic bright-grayish dull 'silver' with unpolished-chrome microscopic-particles).
__ Your post inspired me to look-up & go-through my old collection of brochures,, but while none had color-pictures of the 1967-w-c.models, I did find pictures of the early 1968-Scrambler*models, which showed the 250 with the gray/silver std.fenders and the 350 with white versions, (* both w-c.Scr-models shown within the same brochure). - (I wouldn't have been so sure that the 350's fenders were really 'white' [instead of silver], if the 250's fenders weren't so obviously darker-colored !)



" Looking at any brochures and pictures I have seen, I thought the headlamp ears were silver as the mudguards. "

____ I now concede that I must be wrong about the headlamp-shell mounting-ears being "black", cuz the black&white pic I have of a 1967 w-c.Scrambler shows them with a rather light color -(silver or white), which is certainly anything other than 'black' !
I've since recalled that the HL.ears on mine (when I got it), were a light-silver (with considerable rust-color breaking-through), that I chose to repaint black.



____ I've now included an adjusted version of the posted-pic which showed the taillight...
It appears that the TL.bracket is-not stock for a Scrambler-model,, but to be sure that that's the actual-case for that frame, it should include a mounting-boss (with a 6mm bolt-hole) welded on top of the rear frame-loop (and now rather hidden under the upper-support of the currently installed non-Scrambler style TL.bracket).


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
DCT-Bob

[LaceyDucati]

Bob

The silver from memory (been awhile since I have looked at it) looks more metallic than most Narrowcase mudguards I've seen. I will try and take a photo in good light of the front mudguard (fender to you guys .

My frame has the single M6 boss in the middle at the top for the rear light mount.

Interesting detail about the alternator Joe, I will drop you a pm.

Regards Nigel

[LaceyDucati]

Hi,
Had time to get the mudguard out and take some pictures. It is not as metallic silver as I remember but is definitely lacquered on top but not underneath. There is some cracked paint underneath and there is no sign of any undercoat whatsoever, possibly only a light coating of rust before paint

IMG_0724.JPG

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= LaceyDucati ...
" Had time to get the mudguard out and take some pictures. "

____ Thanks for posting your pix !
(You must've posted them soon after I had last lost my working-connection to the internet last-Tuesday, cuz I never saw your post that day.)



" It is not as metallic silver as I remember "

____ For ME however, that's the same "light/bright rather non-metallic/solid-gray" paint-color which I do recall from my memory of 45-years ago, back when I last saw such fenders still with stock-paint !
__ I'm pretty-sure that's the original color for the 1967 w-c.250-Scrambler, but really don't recall for-sure whether the '67-350 employed the very-same gray-color or if it was rather the same white-color as the 1968-350 (with the regular rounded-style Scr.fenders).
Finding any 350-Scrambler still with it's stock white-paint, will probably never occur ever again,, as original-owners were always relatively quick to repaint them with a preferred custom paint-color !
Our best clue as to the particular shade of the original white-paint (which the factory had chosen), possibly may well be merely that which has been discovered by Mark.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[dukesports]

Hi Guys

Re the paint colour.... I was flying fairly blind when I first restored this bike.....the web didn't have the info it does today...I've restored many bikes and several Ducati bevels and belts....and I've always gone for originality, mainly because so may Ducs have been modified over the decades...so when I got this SCR and was told by Gowie about it's relevance, I got anal on resto rather than cafe/mod it.

With little or nothing to go on I relied heavily on what my painter found (Marty's Motorcycle Paints back in the 90's, he used to race a sidecar). The fact he found the colour on all both guards and the head-light ears AND it appeared factory is what led me to paying $$$ for what I otherwise thought was a whacky paint scheme.

Gowie did NOT say "yes sure that's the real deal" he said "they were in shit financially, and taking and making orders from what they could...paint colours were not consistent and that (white/ish) is probably original."

I'd really like to a scan of the brochure you mentioned showing 250 & 350 with what appears to be different colour fenders.

Apologies for not coming back on other matters, I'm really busy at end FY. I've got lots to ask/respond to on the other 8 items of concerns on my 350,

cheers, Mark