Electric question

[yoper1987]

Hello everybody again))))

Tell please the scheme electricians without regulator...
Using only the generator, ignition and the coil) it really so to start the engine? ? ?

The generator at me leaves three wires: as I understand the yellow - ground, red +, white-. ? ? ? ?

I tried to connect so: from ignition and red on coil plus, and a minus of the coil to frame(ground).... sparks aren't present ((((

And one more question how to understand externally 12v or 6v at me the generator?

Thanks)) excuse for silly questions))

[JimF]

This is a tough one...

The regulator usually contains a rectifier as well, and the two work together. The rectifier will rectify the AC (alternating voltage and thus alternating current) coming out of the alternator.

The rectifier which uses diodes converts the AC current to DC which means direct current. The alternating voltage before going into the rectifier had a toggling polarity (plus and minus) but coming out of the rectifier has a fixed polarity and this is where we begin to think of the system voltage as having a "plus" and a "minus" side where the minus side is usually tied to the motorcycle's frame.

The regulator then regulates the peak "DC" voltage so as to run electrical devices (light bulbs, ignition systems, horns) that are manufactured to operate at a fixed and constant voltage level and perhaps store charge in a battery.


BUT, you can run a motorcycle off of AC voltage. Some of the narrow case bikes were implemented that way.

That being said, I was thinking you had a wide case bike. To the best of my knowledge I thought all wide case bikes used rectifier/regulators.

Also to the best of my knowledge, all Ducati singles were 6-volt motorcycles. Even the AC bikes were fitted with 6-volt light bulbs and such even though the alternating voltage had no voltage regulation and varied tremendously.

So my question is: Do you have a wide case or a narrow case engine?

Jim

[yoper1987]

So my question is: Do you have a wide case or a narrow case engine?

Jim

At me.wide case.. precisely (back fastenings of the engine of 205 mm)))))
Thank you that all explained))))
I will look for the regulator on ebay.... )


Today completely I cleaned off the engine))).... all shines... it is a lot of brass spare parts even on the carburetor... looks divinely)

[JimF]

This is what I believe would have been mounted to your motorcycle when it was made:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/6V-VOLTAGE-REGU ... 0732270%26

Sorry for the long link...



Here is an active auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-1969-70- ... 6e&vxp=mtr


I am hoping someone will verify that I am correct...

[yoper1987]

This is what I believe would have been mounted to your motorcycle when it was made:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/6V-VOLTAGE-REGU ... 0732270%26

Sorry for the long link...



Here is an active auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-1969-70- ... 6e&vxp=mtr


I am hoping someone will verify that I am correct...

Thanks a lot for $150 it not deshy)))))))
And for $40 I saw.... But the person isn't sure that it is work)))

[JimF]

Yes, this hobby is difficult in financial terms, particularly owing to the value that Ducati's popularity adds to everything.

What seems to be a blessing is also a curse. If you are blessed with owning a full and running motorcycle the value of it seems to rise every year.

If you are looking for parts to complete or keep one running then the value of the parts are a curse.

In your case if you can weather the prices enough to get all the parts you need you will likely assembly a motorcycle and worry that the cost of putting it together was too high. For this reason it is usually best to start with a complete motorcycle or an almost complete one.

It has been my experience in all cases that as time has passed from completing a restoration the memory of the expenses disappear from my brain, but I see the value of the motorcycle climb year after year and soon comes the day that I know the motorcycle's value has surpassed the expense I have placed into it.

These expenses though are running very high now and I wonder if I could afford them were I to start today. However, I know that I had trouble finding and affording parts when I started 15 years ago, so perhaps little has really changed.

I sincerely hope you will have the same outcome as I have been fortunate to experience.

My worry is that the prices these motorcycles command will put many of them into the hands of collectors solely seeking financial profit, investors if you will, rather than into the hands of enthusiasts who will ride and enjoy the motorcycles. Certainly there are enough motorcycles and enough room in the world for both types of owners, but the enthusiasts will constantly require greater personal wealth to stay in contention.


With all that being said, the parts we buy are suspect, whether they are mechanical or electrical, and are at the very least many decades old at the very least.


I was converting my AC narrow case 250 to DC so that I could run some LED lights on it when I jumped at a buy-it-now on eBay for a 6-volt regulator that is made to be used on a Ducati. I wound up using a generic and simpler unit. Let me find the Ducati unit and try to find out what I paid for it. Perhaps you might be willing to pay me what I paid, and I believe it to have been in-between the prices of the two regulators for which I sent you links.

Keep in mind I did not use it, and as such I do not know if it works.

Otherwise you can buy a new albeit generic unit for less money at the risk of having to adapt it to your motorcycle and perhaps adversely affecting its value as non-stock/non-original as time moves on.

Jim

[Jordan]

Are you using a battery, Max?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

Hello everybody again))))

Tell please the scheme electricians without regulator...
Using only the generator, ignition and the coil) it really so to start the engine? ? ?

The generator at me leaves three wires: as I understand the yellow - ground, red +, white-. ? ? ? ?

I tried to connect so: from ignition and red on coil plus, and a minus of the coil to frame(ground).... sparks aren't present ((((

And one more question how to understand externally 12v or 6v at me the generator?

Thanks)) excuse for silly questions))

____ Sorry I didn't get the opportunity to discover & respond to this post sooner !

____ From another of your posts within this thread, I gather that you are in regards to a 250/350 wide-case motor (possibly with the 28-watt charging-system) which doesn't use a battery to power the ignition-system. (?)
(Or possibly rather perhaps a stock 450R/T w-c.motor with the early 250-Motocross/40-watt type AC.electrical-system [with 4-pole alternator & connection-cable with it's two wire-leads]. [?] )
Such an electrical-system (with 4-pole alternator) was employed by Ducati for the early wide-case Scrambler-models (of 1967 [only]), and it was borrowed & adopted from the closely related electrical-systems of the 160-MonzJr & 1966 n-c.250-Scrambler models !
If this (rather rare) system is what you actually have and are in actual regards to, then the REAL/straight-forward answer to your thread-post inquiry, is to connect the yellow alternator -("generator") wire-lead to the ignition-coil (on the same terminal-post as the ign.points).
At-least this is the correct reply-answer/responce IF your w-c.system employs the 4-pole alternator with a connection-cable containing THREE wire-leads (consisting of a single yellow-wire & a red-wire & a white-wire) !
And if so, you should then be able to get all the related info you need by following the related data intended for any '28 watt' electrical-system (as also employed by the 1966 narrow-case 250-Scrambler model) !
__ On the other-hand,, if the related thought-work within Jim's first-post (here in this thread), is what's actually relevant to your particular inquiry-case, and you actually have the more common '70 watt' w-c.electrical-system (with 6-pole alternator which has a connection-cable with a pair of yellow wire-leads & one red wire-lead),, THEN in such case, the relevant answer to your post-inquiry would be considerably DIFFERENT (than my-own interpretation of your intended inquiry/quest) ! ...
Although I still understand/gather however, that you quest/prefer to run your w-c.Duke-model without any regulator ! _ This possibility is also relatively easily done with the substitution of some kind of On/Off-switch or relay (in place of a regulator-circuit) ! ...
Since Ducati's unique 6-pole alt.stator-design is somewhat self-regulating according-to changes in load, an On/Off-switch in line with one of it's yellow wire-leads will cause the alternator to either provide merely-just minimal-power -(up to about 25-watts), or-else maximum-power -(up to about 75-watts).
If you are-not much concerned with keeping your Duke totally stock, then I most-always rather recommend that the simple switch method be employed (along-with just a pair of power-diodes), rather than the easily ruined stock regulator-unit !
(Note - a ruined stock regulator-unit can be employed [like I recommend], by simply gutting-out it's burnt-out regulator circuit-block and hot-wiring the unit's heat-sunk pair of power-diodes, [so as to help keep such things appearing as stock].)
____ After you've confirmed which electrical-system your w-c.Duke actually has, we can then further discuss the particular details of your chosen method to get your Duke-project's electrical-system up-&-running in a proper fashion.



" And one more question how to understand externally 12v or 6v at me the generator? "

____ Well, DUCATIs don't use a "generator" -(which depend on a charged battery to create electro-magnets [within the generator-unit] to excite power-generation) ! _ Rather however, DUCATIs actually use an 'alternator' (with permanent-magnets) !
__ And actually, there's no such thing as either a 6v or 12v alternator !! ... They are simply just 'RATED' that way, as being intended for 6 or 12 volt systems ! _ But either rating could possibly be used for either voltage-system, so there's no real difference to be concerned with,, (as only batteries & v.regulator-circuits actually determine the particular system-voltage) !
It ought-to be understood that IF alternators simply created varying amounts of mere 'current' (rather than 'power' -['current' x 'voltage']) according to RPM,, then IF alternators could somehow possibly be designed to produce certain voltage-amounts such as either 6 or 12 'volts', THEN there would-not be any need for the likes of voltage-regulators !
Regulator-circuits can possibly be eliminated whenever the charging-system's power is fairly matched with the power-draw of the on-line load-system, and that can be fairly well done by disconnecting one of the alternator's power-outputs whenever the headlight is turned-off, (thus the reason for the recommended On/Off-switch, in place of a regulator). _ Any leftover smaller variances in power/load-matching is easily absorbed & controlled by the battery.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[sjm44]

I understand the explanation of the 250 monza narrow case two wire alternator system and how it could be used without a regulator/rectifier. Do you have a diagram, possibly using the original Ducati diagram showing where to connect the two wires from the aternator.? My alternator has two wires , one white and one black, I understand that the outputs are not the same. I have measured the resistance from each to the engine block with no measurable difference.

Thanks

Steve

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ GoodDay Steve,
I regret not seeing your post sooner, but my internet-connection went off-line (again!) and remained that way since sometime early Sunday-morning !


[quote= sjm44 ...
" I understand the explanation of the 250 monza narrow case two wire alternator system and how it could be used without a regulator/rectifier. "

____ I sort-of wish you had 'quoted' the post-wording which has inspired you of such, (so that I'd then know of what not to repeat again),, or else you may've rather started a new dedicated thread.



" Do you have a diagram,
showing where to connect the two wires from the aternator.? "

____ There's probably been one of such already posted before,, but for right-now, I'd have to say no.
But it's so simple, that perhaps you could get-along without !?
__ Do you have a pair of power-diodes or a (rather handy) bridge-block, to use for your intended charging-system project ?
__ And what-all are you expecting your load-system to consist of ?



" My alternator has two wires , one white and one black, "

____ A stock 250Monza-alternator ought-to have two yellow-wires (grounded at the stator-core).
So do you confirm that your black and white wires seem to be obvious replacement-wires ?



" I understand that the outputs are not the same. "

____ I'm not sure of exactly what you mean by that.
Those two wires both put-out the same amount of AC, but rather at opposed polarity.



" I have measured the resistance from each to the engine block with no measurable difference. "

____ While one of the stator windings is ever-so-slightly longer, it's expected that an ohm-meter would-not indicate the extra-tiny difference.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob