Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

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thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby thatnameisal » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:19 pm

Hello Gang:

Hope this year is off to a good start for you. I am convinced this Monza Jr 160cc I have been rebuilding is haunted…

After extensive testing to see what was shorting out the system it seems that the “diode” is the culprit.

Unfortunately, the wiring diagram I have (attached for your reference) does not list any particulars about it other than calling it “#6 Diode.” I suspect it is a regulator/rectifier of some sort.

In any event, mine (also in the pictures below) is grounding the circuit and causing all kinds of trouble. Anyone know of where to find a replacement or what to use that will work as a substitute. I am working with a 6V system

I should note, when mounted the "diode" is not physically touching anything that would ground it.

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can offer.

Cheers,
Mark

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amartina75
Posts: 347
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:13 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH. USA

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby amartina75 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:06 pm

Last winter my brother rewired my 250 Scrambler for me, we replaced that diode with one my dad already had. sorry I don't remember what it was.
If you look in the parts book at the headlight and wiring page the diode is shown. it is part # 062238376 and is listed as "Diode 1E-B10-R-Ray"
Ray is short for the manufacturers name. I think B-10 is the rating or size, possibly 1EB10.
one thing to look out for is how you hook it up, being a + and - side to the diode
diode.JPG
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1966 250 Scrambler
1970 450 Jupiter

thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby thatnameisal » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:24 pm

Thanks for the quick reply, amartina75. My spare parts manual lists it as 0316.38.370 Diode 1 E-B20-AR-RAY...a little different:
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Problem is that I cant find anything similar with a google search of the part number or the description

amartina75
Posts: 347
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:13 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH. USA

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby amartina75 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:23 am

sorry i thought your monza Jr was the same as my scrambler, it must be an earlier model as the charging systems and wiring are the same.
this wont help you much but i remembered what the RAY stands for it's Raytheon Electronics, and the 1E B20 AR is the Raytheon Electronics part number I think.
they no longer make diods
1966 250 Scrambler
1970 450 Jupiter

Jordan
Posts: 1394
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby Jordan » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:31 am

As there isn't another diode or rectifier shown in the diagram, the component would be a normal diode I think. It's needed for battery charging.
A regulator type zener diode has one terminal straight to ground, which this one is not.
The absence of a regulator is typical of low power systems, which rely on having a near balanced load. The generator is just about capable of meeting the needs of the loads, and not much more. That way the battery avoids being over-charged. The lighting control switch probably also calls in more coils from the alternator as needed.
My friend Tony modified his 250 Monza to this method when his regulator failed, with no problems for years.
I would think any diode of about the same size would work on your bike. You can buy stud mounted types from electronics shops.

thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby thatnameisal » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:39 am

Well, I found the thread below...thanks AGAIN to DewCatTea-Bob...

After reading your post several time, I am still unsure what amperage the 160 is running at as well as what amperage the diode/rectifier has to be able to handle...

I found several of them here:
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/LeftNav/Semiconductors/SignalDiodes.cat
that meet the minimum 71V but I still need to know the minimum amperage.

Thanks in advance for all your assistance...

Mark.

DewCatTea-Bob wrote:____ Sorta seems that I ought to help clarify some additional FACTS concerning diode-rectifiers for use on so-called "6-volt" DUKEs.....
__ I've used std.volt-meters to measure the maximum AC-voltage output of the alternators on most every OHC-single -('DUKE') model... Max.voltage ranged from about 50 to 80 RMS-volts -(for comparison, std.house-voltage is 110 to 130volts 'RMS' ! ) _ And "RMS" (RootMeanSquare AC-voltage) is considered to be the AVERAGE-voltage outcome of the std.AC-waveform, (that's fairly equal to the equivalent DC-voltage, [concerning 'resistance' loads, only]).
But in reference to diode-specs, "RMS" voltages need to be multiplied by the square-root of '2' in order to figure the 'PEAK'-voltage which a diode must stand-up against! _ Thus in order to be sure that a suitable diode will be able to maintain it's job on any stock DUKE model, the diode involved should have a PIV of at least 114-volts!
However in the case of the stock 160's relatively weak charging-circuit, a rating of 71-PIV should be quite sufficient for the involved diode's job, but, since diodes aren't made to meet such irregular specs, ya then have to choose an available unit which has what-ever diode-specs that'll cover -(even though exceed) the voltage & amperage figures which your required diode must contend with !
Likewise if ya can get a diode/rectifier unit with 100-PIV for a couple-bucks, or another with 200PIV (that's under just a buck -[1$] more, [and either choice can handle your minimum required amperage]), then ya could simply let your choice be determined by which-ever unit is easiest to get mounted (within your 160-charging project)!
___ What happens if a diode is subjected to conditions greater than it's rated-specs, ya may wonder!? ...
Well, when a diode's valve is performing it's job of preventing electrical-juice from REVERSE-flowing, and that juice develops excessive peak-pressure -(voltage-peaks that are more than 10% higher than the diode's rating), then the reverse-current will FORCE it's way though the diode-valve anyhow! _ And once that has occurred, the diode will then never be as good as it was when new! ... As it's valve will no longer be able to stand-up against the voltage/pressure which it was originally rated to handle,, or it may quit working all-together, by acting like either a 'short' or an open-circuit.
__ If a diode is simply exposed to a short-circuit and thus is then subjected to excessive forward-current-flow -(amperage that's over 10% greater than the diode's rating), then the diode will overheat & perhaps burn-out -(and that would then make it act as an open-circuit, [rarely as a short] ).
When a new diode is working near it's rated capacity, it will feel quite warm to the touch, but if it feels burning-hot, then something's not right!
Also, a diode's normal current-rating is set for room-temp operation, and so could handle somewhat higher juice-currents if kept cool, (such as by heat-sinking to metal kept below room-temp).

____ Furthermore, about "6-volt" DUKEs... The ONLY thing about any narrow-case model that's ACTUALLY '6' volts, is the 6volt-BATTERY & 6volt-lightbulb-FILAMENTs !
NO other part on any of them is really set at exactly '6-volts', not even the heavy so-called "voltage-regulator" black box which has "6 Volt" labeled right on it's side!!
Anything other than the 6-volt battery, is simply 'RATED' at 6-volts!


Enlightened-Cheers,
-Bob

JimF
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Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby JimF » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:29 am

The diode is a rectifier, but not a regulator. It rectifies AC voltage into pulsating DC voltage but with no regard to voltage regulation.

Something like this might work:

http://www.newark.com/solid-state/1n120 ... dp/10P3998

It's just a simple diode. From anode to cathode when forward biased it will conduct up to 12 amps and from cathode to anode when reverse-biased it will not conduct unless the voltage gets beyond 200 volts.

Both those numbers are far above what you will encounter.

Probably the primary reason the Ducati diode looks like it does it for heat dissipation. With high currents flowing through it and a voltage drop across the semiconductor junction inside, some power will be lost and that must be expended as heat. These large metal diodes can not only dissipate heat but if using the threaded bolt through something metal the heat will "sink" into the surrounding metal further cooling the diode.

Seemingly the diode charges the DC battery by sending a pulse of DC into the battery, and it is used to send pulsating DC to the horn and the brake lamp filament.

Don't connect that metal diode to the frame as the metal body of the diode is its cathode.


Jim

Nick from Kent
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby Nick from Kent » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:11 pm

Nick
Lamberhurst
Kent

Jordan
Posts: 1394
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby Jordan » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:08 pm

Nick from Kent wrote:This is what I used on mine:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECTIFIER-6V- ... 7925814%26


That's not a bad idea. This bridge rectifier has a centre mounting hole, and 4 diodes though only one is needed - 3 spares built in.
The body of the diode would be isolated, so could be bolted directly to a metal part of the bike.

thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Monza Jr 160 diode/regulator question

Postby thatnameisal » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:01 pm

JimF wrote:The diode is a rectifier, but not a regulator. It rectifies AC voltage into pulsating DC voltage but with no regard to voltage regulation.

Something like this might work:

http://www.newark.com/solid-state/1n120 ... dp/10P3998

It's just a simple diode. From anode to cathode when forward biased it will conduct up to 12 amps and from cathode to anode when reverse-biased it will not conduct unless the voltage gets beyond 200 volts.

Both those numbers are far above what you will encounter.
Jim


Jim - I bought 3 just to be safe and they came last night.

I installed one and connected everything...I know the diode is going to get warm, but it got down right HOT HOT HOT

I am thinking maybe these particular diodes were positive ground??

I guess I can switch the polarity and try again, but before I blew out my new harness I figured I would ask here first

Any thoughts?


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