1965 Monza Jr 160 Wiring & Battery Options

[thatnameisal]

you should check to see if you already have good ign.spark ! _ As you ought need to know whether the mag.rotor ign.timing you've already chosen, actually works well or not.

Yes - Good spark (with #14 now running to #11). I am still going to open her up and re-do my wiring...hopefully tomorrow

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= thatnameisal ...
" Yes - good spark "

____ Does that mean you've had the engine running ? _ If so, have you yet checked to see if the lights light-up very well ? _ (Which according to your newest ohmmeter-readings, they should be very-dim, [if light-up at all] !)



" I am still going to open her up and re-do my wiring... "

____ Okay but, before pulling the flywheel-rotor,, you should place your-own timing-dot/mark on it, exactly next-to where the crankshaft's key-slot is, so as to easily reinstall the rotor back in the very-same place, (so that your good ign.timing will then surely remain maintained, as you've already got it).
__ So are you also considering replacing you chosen three wire-lead cable with a 4-wire version ?
That's a fairly important consideration, since others have done-so so-as to cure the common-issue of the head-light getting too-dim whenever the eng.revs are running below about 2500-RPM.



" hopefully tomorrow "

____ Whoa-Nelly,, let's not rush-through this again so quickly, as I have more details to give you, (some of which got passed-by last time).
__ To start with,, once you get-down to the alt.stator, and remove your alt.cable, then take your ohm-readings of the lower power-coil again,, and we'll next continue-on from there, (which may take a few more days).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[thatnameisal]

____ Okay but, before pulling the flywheel-rotor,, you should place your-own timing-dot/mark on it, exactly next-to where the crankshaft's key-slot is, so as to easily reinstall the rotor back in the very-same place, (so that your good ign.timing will then surely remain maintained, as you've already got it).

Here is a photo of the rotor. It has two engraved markings which do not line up with where the woodruf key was. I marked it when I began dismantling the case but at this point, "I dont trust nothin'bout" this bike. I am guessing the longer/thinner engraved line on the right lines-up with the cylinder at TDC?

____ Does that mean you've had the engine running ? _ If so, have you yet checked to see if the lights light-up very well ? _ (Which according to your newest ohmmeter-readings, they should be very-dim, [if light-up at all] !)

Nope - when I bought the bike it came [literally] in a trash can

I got spark just kicking it over

As for the lights, the rear running light, brake light and "town" light all worked (because they run off the battery) but the headlamp never did.

__ So are you also considering replacing you chosen three wire-lead cable with a 4-wire version ?
That's a fairly important consideration, since others have done-so so-as to cure the common-issue of the head-light getting too-dim whenever the eng.revs are running below about 2500-RPM.

Well, I bought a 4-wire version (16AWG SJEOOW) with, you guessed it, black, yellow, white and red as the colors. I tried to find your post about rectifying the dim low-rpm light, but couldnt. Can you let me know the link please.

__ To start with,, once you get-down to the alt.stator, and remove your alt.cable, then take your ohm-readings of the lower power-coil again,, and we'll next continue-on from there, (which may take a few more days).

OKAY - lets get to the meat...using the diagrams below:

RED #9 (from solder to ground) = 0.2ohm
WHITE # 2 (from solder to ground) = 0.0ohm
YELLOW #14 (from solder to ground) = 0.9ohm

Resistance between lower coil leads RED #9 and WHITE #2 = 0.2ohm
Resistance between lower coil leads RED #9 and copper wire ground on lower left of the 1st picture = 0.2ohm
Resistance between upper coil leads (YELLOW #14 and the ground next to it) =1.0ohm

All three have continuity to ground (still)

There are TRHEE leads out of the bottom coil:
1. One on the lower right of the lower coil that is soldered to RED #9 (1st picture below)
2. One on the lower left of the lower coil that is grounded to bottom left screw (1st & 2nd picture below)
3. Wire coming out of the bottom of coil (3rd & 4th picture below marked with blue arrow) that goes to WHITE #2

Where is that 3rd wire coming from and what is it?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ I've begun working on this (which will take a while longer to finish-up).





[quote=thatnameisal ...
" Here is a photo of the rotor. It has two engraved markings which do not line up with where the woodruf key was. "

____ The shorter/fatter line is the factory-placed 'timing-mark' ! _ I don't know what the factory's reasoning was for placing THEIR-mark on their various 4-pole mag.rotors, but it doesn't seem smart to me, cuz once the knowledge of whichever motor-model the mag.rotor originally came-from is lost, then there's no-longer any way to make use of the factory timing-mark. _ And also,, even when you KNOW which model of rotor you have, trying to get the rotor set at the factory-recommended angle in relation to the crankshaft's TDC.point, is an undue extra-TASK !



" I marked it when I began dismantling the case but at this point,
I am guessing the longer/thinner engraved line on the right lines-up with the cylinder at TDC? "

____ Only the key-slot (in the c.shaft) should line-up with the center-line of the (10-degree tilted) cylinder, at TDC, (along-with the added timing-mark which I always suggest adding to the rotor-face (as near as possible to the crankshaft's key-way, apparently as you've already done).
__ That long/thin line has been added by someone other than the factory, and only that person knows what he was thinking when he placed THAT line. _ (After you get your flywheel/alt.rotor reinstalled, I may then take a stab at what his intention for that line might've been.)
If you care to check-it-out, you could try setting that thin-line to the TDC.point of the c.crank, and then check to see if the resulted high-tension voltage-output from the ign.coil is possibly any greater than that attained with the rotor set at your added mark. _ (To get a comparison between the two locations, a digital-meter with a memory-hold feature would likely be needed in order to actually read the [extremely short-term] voltage-peak.)




" I got spark just kicking it over "

____ That seems fairly good-enough, but if that angle-location doesn't happen to match the factory-recommended rotor-mark angle, then a reconsideration may be in order.
__ Do you have a workshop-manual which provides the factory-angle for the 160-rotor ?



" the rear running light, brake light and "town" light all worked (because they run off the battery) "

___ Actually the taillight-filament is only powered by the battery when in town/parking-mode, and is powered by the lighting/-power-coil while in the running-mode !



" but the headlamp never did. "

____ The headlight-bulb is ONLY powered by just the lighting/power-coil alone !
__ You can use a 6v.battery to check if it's two bulb-filaments are in working-condition.



" I bought a 4-wire version
with
black, yellow, white and red as the colors. "

____ I can't hardly believe that you've managed to find a ready-made 4-conductor utility-cable with a yellow-wire (rather than the fairly common green-wire) ! _ That's gotta be shear destiny ! _ May your current state of luck continue-onward as well !
__ While the other three are logically obvious,, the intended-destiny connection-location for the black-wire, is to the originally grounded lead-end of the lower power-coil.



" I tried to find your post about rectifying the dim low-rpm light, but couldnt. Can you let me know the link please. "

____ I'll try-to if you really want that thread/post (concerning the 40w.stator), but I don't recall ever doing such a post concerning the 28w.alt.stator,, so I'm quite willing to post all the related details you'll need, here in THIS thread.



" OKAY - lets get to the meat...
RED #9 (from solder to ground) = 0.2ohm
WHITE # 2 (from solder to ground) = 0.0ohm "

____ Okay, of-course I pretty-much expected that you'd get the same ohm-readings as your most recent,, but since their all still the same, we now certainly have-to go-onward to the next step or two (for just the lower power-coil)...
__ The first next-step (before taking the next check of meter-readings) requires merely-just slight further tear-down, only requiring the unsoldering of the obvious screw-head grounded lead-end on the lower power-coil.
Once that power-winding's lead-end has been isolated from the ground of the entire stator, then the ohm-readings of the #2 & #9 alt.wire-leads will then need to be checked again.
And if the ohm-readings still haven't changed to normal-readings, then next that power-coil will have-to be entirely removed from the stator-plate, to have it's ohm-readings checked over-again !



" YELLOW #14 (from solder to ground) = 0.9ohm "

____ Readings of anywhere between .8 to 1.1 is indicative of being 'good', so THAT power-coil is good-to-go !



" Resistance between lower coil leads RED #9 and WHITE #2 = 0.2ohm "

____ That may indeed be a normal-reading...
The lower 28w.power-coil has a red coil-winding (for the lights), and a (weaker) white coil-winding (for charging the battery with).
So, by not involving 'ground' when you measured the resistance between the #2/white & #9/red circuits, you thus-then measured the resistance of just the white coil-winding alone, (and got the correct ohm-reading for THAT power-winding).



" Resistance between lower coil leads RED #9 and copper wire ground on lower left of the 1st picture = 0.2ohm "

____ That should be the very-same circuit (as above), cuz the electron-current from your ohm-meter ought rather go the easiest route through the white coil-winding to the (grounded? *) #2-circuit, (rather than go-through the more resistive red coil-winding !).
__ * I'm not too awfully familiar with the relatively rare 28w.stator, but I don't think that it's lower power-coil is supposed to have more than one grounded power-winding lead-end.



" There are TRHEE leads out of the bottom coil: "

____ That's consistent with what I recall for that 28w.type power-coil.
And only ONE of those lead-ends, (the one at the screw-head), is supposed to be grounded, (as I recall).



" 1. One on the lower right of the lower coil that is soldered to RED #9 (1st picture below)
2. One on the lower left of the lower coil that is grounded to bottom left screw (1st & 2nd picture below) "

____ All that seems to be as it should-be ! _ And those two lead-ends are that of the red coil-winding.



" 3. Wire coming out of the bottom of coil (3rd & 4th picture below marked with blue arrow) that goes to WHITE #2
Where is that 3rd wire coming from and what is it?
"

____ I believe that THAT lead-end is from the white coil-winding,, and it should go DIRECTLY-to the white/#2-circuit (without also going ANYwhere-else !). _ However from your #4-picture -(of the 5-pix in a row), with the two blue-arrows, the left-arrow of which, seems to-be pointing at a line-bead of solder,, which leaves me with the impression that both that lead-end and the jumper-wire (which connects to the center connection-terminal) are evidently soldered right-to the stator-plate. _ Is that really the ACTUAL-case ?

[thatnameisal]

[color=#0000FF]_
trying to get the rotor set at the factory-recommended angle in relation to the crankshaft's TDC.point, is an undue extra-TASK !
....
____ Only the key-slot (in the c.shaft) should line-up with the center-line of the (10-degree tilted) cylinder, at TDC, (along-with the added timing-mark which I always suggest adding to the rotor-face (as near as possible to the crankshaft's key-way, apparently as you've already done).
...
__ Do you have a workshop-manual which provides the factory-angle for the 160-rotor ?

My woodruf key slot on the crank is right there. The manual says 32-36 degrees BTDC. I guess I can try it according to the manual. I still have my white markings if it doesnt work. Given I have rebuilt this engine several times, it wont be too troublesome.

__ You can use a 6v.battery to check if it's two bulb-filaments are in working-condition.

Yes - the hardware and the bulb work fine

____ I can't hardly believe that you've managed to find a ready-made 4-conductor utility-cable with a yellow-wire (rather than the fairly common green-wire) ! _ That's gotta be shear destiny ! _ May your current state of luck continue-onward as well !
__ While the other three are logically obvious,, the intended-destiny connection-location for the black-wire, is to the originally grounded lead-end of the lower power-coil.

Bob, I lied. I yellow shrink wrapped the green. Dont tell Santa.

__ The first next-step (before taking the next check of meter-readings) requires merely-just slight further tear-down, only requiring the unsoldering of the obvious screw-head grounded lead-end on the lower power-coil.
Once that power-winding's lead-end has been isolated from the ground of the entire stator, then the ohm-readings of the #2 & #9 alt.wire-leads will then need to be checked again.
And if the ohm-readings still haven't changed to normal-readings, then next that power-coil will have-to be entirely removed from the stator-plate, to have it's ohm-readings checked over-again !

Lower Coil Results ON the Stator Plate

#2 WHITE to power-winding ground end = 0.2
#9 RED to power-winding ground end = 0.4

Lower Coil Results OFF the Stator Plate

#2 WHITE to power-winding ground end = 0.15
#9 RED to power-winding ground end = 0.35

both took a minute for the meter to finally come to rest

____ I believe that THAT lead-end is from the white coil-winding,, and it should go DIRECTLY-to the white/#2-circuit (without also going ANYwhere-else !). _ However from your #4-picture -(of the 5-pix in a row), with the two blue-arrows, the left-arrow of which, seems to-be pointing at a line-bead of solder,, which leaves me with the impression that both that lead-end and the jumper-wire (which connects to the center connection-terminal) are evidently soldered right-to the stator-plate. _ Is that really the ACTUAL-case ?

No it just looks like that in the picture. That is just the shape the plate was cast to. The blue arrows are just for getting the general direction.

Regardless, coil/winding is off the plate for the moment.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ I haven't yet completely finished my previous-post, but I'll move-on to this now.



[quote= thatnameisal ...
" The manual says 32-36 degrees BTDC. I guess I can try it according to the manual. I still have my white markings if it doesnt work. "

____ Using a degree-wheel, it will be interesting to also learn what the degree-locations exactly are of the long/thin line and your white-marking (compared to the factory-recommended 34-degrees).



" I lied. I yellow shrink wrapped the green. "

____ Well I must say that since Ducati used green-wire for the REST of the 160-ign.power-circuit to the ign.coil, that you have taken a FURTHER-step than even I-myself would've bothered to do !
__ If I had been in charge at Ducati, there's no-way that the 28w.wire-leads would've gotten all the very-same wire-colors as the older 40w.version ! _ At-least the white-wire would've been changed to the color of the wire running the rest of the way to the diode.



" Lower Coil Results ON the Stator Plate
#2 WHITE to power-winding ground end = 0.2 "

____ It seems evident that my UN-finished previous-post was not worded as well as it should've been. ...
Where you have stated "ground end" raises concern as to exactly where you connected your ohm-meter's test-probes.
My intention was for them to be connected to just the bare power-coil lead-ends ONLY (of the #2 & #9 circuit-connections) and-also JUST the other lead-end which you've unsoldered from the winding-core (where the screw-head was),, and not ANY-other place that could be considered as a 'ground' point !
KNOWING for-sure that your "0.2" reading was taken at the lead-ends as expected, will allow for trustworthy speculation.
Although it seems that you've understood correctly and got the expected/intended test-reading, as the "0.2" is the same as ought be expected for a normal power-winding meant for the diode.



" #9 RED to power-winding ground end = 0.4 "

____ Again, as directly above,, instead of seeing "ground" mentioned, I'd rather see 'unsoldered lead-end', so I'm SURE to know exactly where BOTH your test-probes were connected at.
__ ASSUMING that you got it right, your "0.4" reading is only about .05 to 2-ohms lower than I had expected for the lighting-coil's power-winding. _ So if all is indeed as expected, then that winding doesn't have any (significant) short-circuits, (as your previous test-readings [of "0.2" & "0.0"] had seemed to indicate).
Although to be SURE, now that the lower power-coil has ALL-three of it's lead-ends disconnected (from any external circuits),, an ohm-meter test-reading should be taken from each of the three lead-ends & 'ground' -(which is now the winding-core).
Cuz now that the coil-winding is no-longer at all grounded anywhere, instead of both #2 & #9 circuits having continuity to ground, they both should now have NO continuity to ground -(the core) !



" Lower Coil Results OFF the Stator Plate
#2 WHITE to power-winding ground end = 0.15
#9 RED to power-winding ground end = 0.35 "

____ Since these test-readings are-not quite as high as expected *, please confirm for-sure (ASAP) exactly where your meter's test-probes were connected to (most concerning the unsoldered lead-end next to the removed screw-head).
(* As I recall for the two lower power-coil winding-circuits,, the red-circuit should be quite-near .5-ohms, and the white-circuit quite-near .2-ohms. _ So YOUR test-readings seem to either indicate some leakage (possibly due-to deteriorating winding-wire insulation),, or-else possibly, (more likely) SUPERIOR-accuracy test-measurements (which I've never-before achieved in the past, with any of my-own test-meters).
So can you try as many ohm-meters (as you happen to have), so-as help confirm or possibly conflict with your above posted-readings ?

_ However from your #4-picture -(of the 5-pix in a row), with the two blue-arrows, the left-arrow of which, seems to-be pointing at a line-bead of solder,, which leaves me with the impression that both that lead-end and the jumper-wire (which connects to the center connection-terminal) are evidently soldered right-to the stator-plate. _ Is that really the ACTUAL-case ?

" No it just looks like that in the picture.
That is just the shape the plate was cast to. "

____ It's strange how the solder-color of that "cast" 'bead' doesn't match the rest of the plate's metal-shade. _ And also, if that had actually been a solder-joint to ground for the #2-circuit/center-terminal jumper-wire, then it would've made perfect-sense for why you had gotten an ohm-reading of "0.0" from that point !



" coil/winding is off the plate for the moment. "

____ Since the power-coil is now removed from the plate, would you have any interest in investigating it's coil-winding ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[thatnameisal]

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Are these pic.shots of your NEWEST-meter which you just recently bought ?
If so,, did you also check the upper power-coil to see if it still read-out '.9' while that meter was still in the very-same state of operation ?



[quote= thatnameisal ...

____ It looks-like you've well-learned how to preset your ohm-meter needle-setting (before taking your test-readings) !


____ Since your pertinent displayed ohm-meter read-outs are about half-value of what they ought-to be, I'm suspecting that that-meter of yours may have a x.5 or x2 setting-switch ? _ If not, then the readings could either indicate a leaky power-coil or-else simply a not so accurate ohm-meter.
So to determine which possibility is most likely, you need to try at-least one other ohm-meter to see if it agrees or not. _ If another test-meter happens to confirm the same ohm-readings (within 20%), then your lower power-coil ought-not be very trustworthy to reinstall. _ And also, since you've strangely gotten a number of much varied ohm-value meter-readouts,, that may possibly be indicative of some kind of varying leakage due-to your mere 'handling' of that power-coil. _ And-so if your "0.0" ohm-reading was actually valid (at the time), then you surely wouldn't care to ever have that happen to occur while out on the road at night.
Whatever, something is amiss !
__ For future meter-checks on your lower-coil, always recheck your meter's reading on the upper-coil, (as a reference control-sample), to make-sure that IT always remains 0.9 to 1.0,
so that your meter-readings on your suspect power-coil can be trusted as valid.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[thatnameisal]

____ Are these pic.shots of your NEWEST-meter which you just recently bought ?
...
____ Since the pertinent ohm-meter read-outs are about half what they ought-to be, I'm suspecting your meter may have a x.5 or x2 setting-switch ? _ If not, then the readings could either indicate a leaky power-coil or-else simply a not so accurate ohm-meter.
So to determine which possibility is most likely, you need to try at-least one other ohm-meter to see if it agrees or not.

Yes, lol, the NEWEST meter. Dont think I wont go out on T-day to try and find another ohm meter.

Assuming a "leaky" power-coil, any proposed fixes? I already tried to find a replacement online to no avail. Ducati Part No.: 0601.46.425 Feeding coil 31.95.472

I did find this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-350-450-DM-250-Monza-Diana-Mach-Bevel-Single-coil-new-3195141-/221159311573?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337e1f48d5
but it is for 31.95.141

[thatnameisal]

Bob:

I wanted to take a moment and thank you for the hours of time you have already invested in helping me get this problem solved.

Please accept my families best wishes for yourself and your family this Thanksgiving day.

Mark

____ Well thanks for your thoughtful-words Mark !
__ Your thankfulness is okay, but no need to be much concerned about my time spent since I'm pretty-much stuck in my lift-chair over 22-hours a day in front of my TV & PC and can't do too much of anything else. _ So I only get my Duke-project fixation from our fellow-members's Duke-projects, to help satisfy my-own similar desire,, and, I happen to find electrical-projects to be the MOST interesting to be involved with ! _ So it is I who should be thanking YOU (for yours), Mark !


Thankful-Cheers,
-Bob