1965 Monza Jr 160 Wiring & Battery Options

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= thatnameisal ...
" you are absolutely correct only wire 9 runs on AC and that goes directly to "Diode"/rectifier. "

____ Well I really don't accept credit for indicating exactly that !
__ To be more specific, the 160-system is primarily an AC.based electrical system, cuz the ign.system & main-lighting are-not dependent on the battery, as the battery is merely intended for just the brake-light; horn & parking-lights only.
The stock key-switch's std.type/DC.connection allows the battery to be able to supply power for the brake-light & horn, whilst it's reversed-type connection un-grounds the AC that's meant for the ign.system.
The parking-light circuit is independent of the key-switch, and is only controlled by the handlebar-switch. _ And also, the separate AC.circuit for the main-lights is handled only through the handlebar-switch.
____ You ought-to check to make-sure that the alternator's yellow-wire connects to the key-switch & ign.coil (through the added green-wire),, and that the alternator's red-wire goes to the handlebar-switch.
__ The alternator's white-wire is a side-tap off-from the lighting-coil, to the diode,, so as to just keep the battery charged. _ (In my-own opinion, Ducati rather ought-to have instead chosen to keep the battery charged-up with 50% of the alt.power that the ign.system simply WASTES to ground ! _ So if you ever care to convert to a 12v.system, then you'll have the option to tap-into the otherwise wasted power, as well.)



" I MUST have a non-OEM switch. "

____ Even-so, I'd still like to see a pic posted of your particular key-switch.



" I think the actual original looks like this, "

____ I'm sure I've seen that rather strange model of key-switch (you've posted) before but, not on any OHC.Duke-model. _ That odd switch appears to be a simple single-circuit switch, as well.
The original/stock key-switch model is quite notably different ! _ And it's the same model as also employed on 1966 250-Scr.models. ...
When the key is inserted, the stock switch-connection's contact-connector is lifted-away off-from one pair of contact-points (for the ign.circuit), and-then becomes pressed-between the other-pair of contact-points (looking similar to that seen in your posted-pic).



" This item is found in the un-obtainium catalog. "

____ Which is where you ought-to leave it, (as it appears to be a simple single--circuit switch) !



" If anyone finds/has one to sell, please feel free to let me know where to buy it...in the mean time I guess I will buy a 3-position/4-post to work around. "

____ A more modern key-switch which performs the same connections as stock, is that employed by 1973 350-Mototrans models,, which is not only a better KEY-switch, but also could be easier to find & purchase.
__ Gathering that your handlebar-switch doesn't include a kill-button,, you may wish to employ a std.type relay-switch in order to defeat the alt.power to ign.circuit, since your intended temporary switch (like you're considering) will likely merely-just perform only std.type Off/On-connections (without any On/Off-connection), as like the switch that you already seem to likely have.
However I-myself really don't like the idea of a relay,, cuz if your battery ever gets run-down, then the relay won't be able to allow activation of the ign.circuit.
So,, if you have-to get-by with a simple single-circuit std.type Off/On-connection key-switch,
then you could choose to use it's single-function to just control the ign.circuit, (which means that your horn & brake-light would then have-to remain directly-activatable by the battery, without the key, [just like the parking-lights already are] ).
__ Whatever setup you're most comfortable with, let me know and I'll suggest how to get it wired-up.



Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT.Bob

[thatnameisal]

Bob:

After looking at your updated wiring diagram with the wiring for the alternator, I have been second guessing myself. I tried to correlate the wires the best I could based on what was there - as you can see, the wires were so old the colors are hard to make out:



And here is what I did afterwards:




Is Alternator/GREEN still 9, Alternator/BLACK still 2, and Alternator/WHITE still 14???

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Sorry but, it seems that the times which you happen to chose to finally submit your reply-posts, keep falling at points when I'm unable to get on-line for extended periods...
This last post of yours was placed at the very-SAME time when I became too ill to remain home and had to go-back to the hospital (AGAIN) ! _ Talk-about shear coincidence !



[quote= thatnameisal ...
" the wires were so old the colors are hard to make out: "

____ The easiest alt.wire to sort-out is the ONE that's connected to an alt.power-coil all by itself,
and it's the (stock) yellow-wire that's meant to power the ign.system.
__ The other alt.power-coil has both the red-wire AND the white-wire, which measure on an ohm-meter near .7 & .2 (or maybe .6 & .3) ohms, (roughly in those reading-ranges) respectfully.



" Is Alternator/GREEN still 9, Alternator/BLACK still 2, and Alternator/WHITE still 14??? "

____ While according to YOUR posted-diagram, your above statement certainly seems indicative of being PHYSICALLY obviously-so that-way,, but electrically, it may quite possibly be screwed-up in some way,
as it's quite certainly hard-telling when such ODD-colored wire-colors are shown exiting the alt.symbol without also indicating which of the three wire-lines are connected to which-ever power-coil (within the alt.symbol) ! ...
I don't know where you got your posted-diagram with it's incorrectly colored alt.wiring-lines...
Line-9 should be 'RED', not "green" , line-2 should be 'WHITE', not "black" , and line-14 should be 'YELLOW', not "white" !!!



____ While of-course that stuff should be worked-out first, I'm still interested to help solve your key-switch issue... So can you post a picture of your switch, (in whatever position it happens to be in currently) ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[machten]

<Post deleted by poster>

[thatnameisal]

Bob:

Sorry to hear that your health put you in the hospital, but VERY happy to hear you are back out again.

I promise not to post any more questions that may land you back into the care of some folks at a hospital.

I will post a pic of the ignition switch as soon as I find it!

Thank you for all of your invaluable posts and assistance.

[JimF]

Welcome back Bob.

(I too will delete this post later and run the risk of being chastised!)

While I know it's not typing that put you in the hospital I am guessing that typing is a slow and probably painful proposition for you. If this is indeed the case and you would like to try such a thing, I would be willing to buy you one of those "Dragon Speak" type of speech recognition programs such that you can perhaps put your replies into computer text faster and easier.


Let me know.


Jim

____ Thanks Jim,, while my typing is indeed certainly quite slow (due-to R.Arthritis related handling restrictions), it's really not painful at all !
__ As for that DS.software,, I've already acquired that about 10-years ago and found it to be a source of as much frustration as it's supposed to solve, mainly due-to the English-language being so improperly refined as it has become, with it's very-many word-sound situations (such-as: 'to' ; 'too' ; 'two' & '2', for a prime-example of such wording-troubles).
__ Thanks for the thoughtful thought though anyhow, Jim !

-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= thatnameisal ...
" VERY happy to hear you are back "

____ Thanks for your appreciation !



" I promise not to post any more questions "

____ Please continue to feel free to ask anything you please !

" that may land you back into the care of some folks at a hospital. "

____ I sure would-not care for such as that again ! ... During the 4-days there, I swear all those many,many folks conspired to keep me from getting no more than 7-hours total of just mere doze/snooze-type sleep (along-with maybe 2-hours of REAL-sleep),, I kid ya not !!



" I will post a pic of the ignition switch as soon as I find it! "

____ Looking forward to that ! _ As I'm pretty-curious about what you have exactly, (that happens to appear as a stock-issue, to you).



" Thank you for all of your invaluable posts and assistance. "

____ You're welcome, of-course !

____ I would've expected before this point into this thread, that you would've by now offered some explanation concerning your-own apparently chosen wire-colors for your posted diagram.
Since I was interested enough to do so,, I downloaded & enhanced your posted-pic of your stator-wiring mod.job (since it was too dark to be sure of what can be seen), hoping to determine if it happened to match your color-altered posted wiring-diagram. _ And-so NOW, I finally fully-realize the purpose of YOUR wiring-diagram. ...
__ I see that you've replaced the stock yellow alt.stator wire-lead with a green-wire...
Gathering that yellow-wire wasn't available to you for your wire replacement job,, 'green' colored wire was a SMART replacement choice, since Ducati had chosen to use that same wire-color for the remainder of their 160-ign.circuit. _ So THAT wire-circuit's color-situation has turned-out quite well for you !
However, your other two wire-circuits are-not so cut-&-dry and may-not have turned-out quite so logical...
HOPEFULLY, you also did as WELL with matching-up your NEW white-wire with the original white-wire connection location-point at the stator-terminal ! _ Which would then mean that only YOUR black-wire is 'ODD' (for being matched-up with the stock RED-wire circuit).
__ Have you yet checked into that-matter with an ohm-meter (to determine if you've gotten those two wire-circuits correct) ?

UPDATE - Much of that which I've assumed within my stated-wording directly above, may-not be good/actual conclusion-work on my part, as I had ASSUMED that your center stator-wiring connection goes to the upper power-coil.
Please see related details within the new-pic I've just added (above the prior-pic).


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= thatnameisal ...
" After looking at your updated wiring diagram with the wiring for the alternator, I have been second guessing myself. I tried to correlate the wires the best I could based on what was there - as you can see, the wires were so old the colors are hard to make out "

____ You should've tried scrapping-off the discoloration to see some of the original rubber-coloring underneath, and then submit your request for advice before bothering to perform your alt.stator-cable replacement fix-job. ...
__ I don't often take it upon myself to further investigate things without timely cooperative follow-up participation-assistance with the member who has posted his presented issues,, but due-to continued lack of timely-response in this case, I've jumped-ahead & tried to sort-out the questionable-stuff on my-own.
Fortunately I was able to download & enhance your posted-pix of the particular 4-pole alt.stator which you seem to have modified, and determine the reason for why various things haven't been quite adding-up correctly as I thought they ought-to. ...
Your alt.stator may-not be a 160-type ('28-watt') alternator-model.
__ Since your posted-pix were too dark to see well enough, I was thusly allowed to be FIRST clued-in to some mystery because it seemed that your center stator-terminal was-not wired to the power-coil with the thicker wire-gauge winding. _ And I had been assuming that you were no-doubt correct about your alt.stator being a 160-type model (likely taken-out from your-own MonzaJr).
HOWEVER,, once I bothered to investigate into the power-coil wire-gauge discrepancy issue and actually see the stock-colors of your alt.stator's wire-leads - (RED to lower power-coil, YELLOW & WHITE to upper [as may or may-not be the actual-case]), I then suspected that your alt.stator-model may-not be a 28w/160-type.
So your alt.stator-model could be the (somewhat more common) '40-watt' type, (which is-not directly-compatible with a stock-160 type electrical-system !).
You could possibly double-check (that I have correctly determined the original-colors of the attached stock-wires), with the use of an ohm-meter. _ So if you care to do so, then I'll instruct you on how to determine your particular alt.stator-model by THAT method, as well.
__ The main-differences between the 40w.type alt.stator and the 160/28w.model is that the larger wire-gauge of the power-coil intended for the main-lighting is connected to merely-just a RED-wire ONLY, for the 40w.stator-version,, while the 28w.version has IT's lighting-coil connected to a red-wire AND-also a WHITE-wire as well !
Also, concerning their respective ign.power-coils (which employ a thinner wire-gauge winding),, the 40w.stator has a yellow-wire along-with a white-wire connected as well,, while the 28w.version's ign.power-coil is connected to merely-just a yellow wire-lead ONLY, (as I've previously pointed-out before) !
__ Now that it's been suspected that your alt.stator-model may-not be stock-equipment for your 160-type electrical-system, you might be faced with a considerably greater set of undesired circumstances than previously (merely)- suspected !
We can easily still get you going quite-well but, it seems rather certain that you'll now have-to consider alternate methods for combining your installed alt.model with your 160's otherwise stock electrical-system. _ Not to be too-much concerned though however, (as it seems that there's no-one else left in this world who could help you BETTER than myself with choosing optional electrical-setups),, but still, let's not keep dragging our feet with this so much ! _ (As I have yet to fully recover from being ill.)

UPDATE - For anyone who had read-through this post as it was before, you'll now notice that I've chosen to take a step back from my previous conclusion about exactly which 4-pole alt.stator-model is in question here...
The reason for my conclusion-change is due to me later looking for confirmation-clues and instead possibly finding contrary-evidence, (which brings fair doubt to any conclusion made without participating help).
The (now added) much brightened-up version of the posted-pic (now showing the stator close-up, from the side-view) better provides a fairly-good clue that the center alt.wire-lead likely doesn't connect to the upper power-coil, after-all (which means that we're back to ASSUMING that the alt.stator is probably a 28w/160-type stator-model).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[thatnameisal]

You could possibly double-check (that I have correctly determined the original-colors of the attached stock-wires), with the use of an ohm-meter. _ So if you care to do so, then I'll instruct you on how to determine your particular alt.stator-model by THAT method, as well.

I got carried away with paint work and I forgot to check this post - so sorry if I made you feel like you were wasting your time. It wasnt my intention at all.

If you are still willing, I certainly would appreciate your assistance testing the system with the ohm-meter...just tell me what to do!

I have another [re-visted] question...
With the numbers corresponding to the wiring diagram posted above, are the wires in photo below labeled accurately (compared to the diagram that you were kind enough to provide) or are the 2 and 14 switched in the photo?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= thatnameisal ...
" I got carried away with paint work and I forgot to check this post "

____ That's fine, (glad YOU weren't in the hospital or something !).


" so sorry if I made you feel like you were wasting your time. "

____ Usually I don't proceed onward much without further thread-participation but, I've been overly curious about that which I've been posting about in this case of yours.
No need to feel "sorry" about anything ! _ I was just a bit concerned that WE may not get this case ironed-out before something-ELSE came-up.


" I certainly would appreciate your assistance testing the system with the ohm-meter...just tell me what to do! "

____ Okay... Well in the case of stock/standard '28w'/160-type alt.stator-models,, considering the stator-plate as 'ground' (for one of the ohmmeter-leads), ALL-three alt.wire-leads should provide circuits to ground, (whereas in the case of the 40w.type, only the red-wire circuits to ground) !
__ The red-wire (intended for main-lighting, with either 4-pole stator-model) should provide an ohm-reading of about .7, while the 28w/160's white-wire should read about .2,, and the yellow-wire (of the ign.power-coil) should provide a reading of about .9-ohms to ground.
(Neither the yellow nor white wires of the 40w.version circuit to ground, and instead circuit only to each-other.)



" With the numbers corresponding to the wiring diagram posted above, are the wires in photo below labeled accurately "

____ With respect to any regular/stock 28w/160-type alt.stator-model, YES, the given wire-numbers which you've labeled onto the (much-expanded) pic.diagram are all correct ! _ HOWEVER concerning the wire-numbers which you've labeled onto your "photo", THAT association is the particular mystery which I've been so very-much concerned with ! _ As there seems to be discrepancies with your particular stator-wiring setup that need to be checked-out (with the ohmmeter-readings) before we can be sure whether yours is indeed all the very-same as normal.



" or are the 2 and 14 switched in the photo? "

____ While your 'pic.diagram' is in straight-order well enough,, it's your actual stator-wiring that's still in question, (and to be worked-out after we learn how your test-readings pan-out), so at this point it seems to be guesswork as to whether you happen to have your wire-number photo-labeling exactly correct for-sure or not (concerning YOUR stator). _ But for a REGULAR 28w.stator-model, you do seem* to have the three alt.wire-leads properly number-labeled (* providing of-course that all those three wire-leads go-on to connect-up to where they APPEAR to be).
__ Since the photographed wire-colors are rather quite questionable, we'll now have-to go by just the number-labels which you've indicated for each of the three wire-leads...
Can you determine which wire-leads connect to which power-coil, for sure ?


____ Now-next to get back to the mystery...
I've added a pair of pix showing just the original/stock alt.wire-leads,,
while the left-most wire is fairly obviously 'red', the center & right-most wires are hard to tell if white or yellow. _ Yet it seems to me that the right-most wire is obviously 'white', and that location would only make sense if the stator is a 40w.model.
__ Rehashing related details about this inconsistency,, it appears that the white-wire is connected to the upper power-coil with the thinner-gauge winding, which is only consistent with the 40w.stator-model. _ However for the 28w.version, the white-wire should be connected to the lighting-coil (with the thicker-gauge winding).