Bike ID please!

[PhilA]

I've been going through my site updating and expanding the captions as necessary (three pages into the Singles so far...) and need a narrow case expert/s to correctly ID this bike for me please:

http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/ ... ?album=930

I can't see the top of the head to check if it is finned or not (even in closeup) which would have narrowed things down somewhat. Any other clues to whether it is a type A or B motor (and hence built from 1961)?

The frame number is: DM200E✩154587✩lGM1007-OM

The engine number is really hard to read but definitely starts: DM200 then at a best guess 13349? - where the ? is another number or symbol.

Thanks!

Phil A

[LaceyDucati]

Phil

If you can zoom in on the bottom cylinder face shape that will at least tell you if it is an A or B series engine.

Flat at the front, rear and sides for an A series engine.

Flat on left hand side, convexed on the right (behind the tunnel) and radiused outwards front and rear faces for a B series.

There are two different 'B' series engines both based on the 250 four speed.

The first uses the flat finned 200 head, with the narrower 175/A series 200 pitch of head bolts with a 250 cylinder casting drilled and bored to suit.
The last type uses a 250 head casting with the "bulged" unfinned top machined to a 67mm hemi with no squish (as all 200's). Both the head and cylinder share the head bolt spacing of the 250.

Effectively the A series is a enlarged 175, the first B series is a 4 speed 250 machined to take a 200 head and the last a 4 speed 250 machined and sleeved to be a 200.

The 2 different 200 B series caught me out and confused the hell when supplying gasket sets! Fairly sure the B series bikes only went to limited countries.

Hope this helps, over to the others for detailed cycle parts recognition (not my thing!).

Best Wishes Nigel

[Paddy]

My view is most of these restored bikes have issues with originality so its never going to be a case of "this is what it is" as most have issues.
There is something odd going on with the base of the barrel on your picture.

this is my B series 1961 Elite



This is your Elite


My guess is that at least your crankcases are A series. not sure about your barrel ?
Your engine number is actually 153494 and that would make it 1959

Your forks should be gold like mine i think and i think you have the wrong brake pedal ?


I also think after reading your text that the SS was a uk model. SS at the time stood for Silverstone Special after the race track and SS as Super sport was a later tern not used till the early twins. but then i an not an expert and know very little about singles.

Most rebuilds are in the Spirit of the original but very few are to be used as definitive reference TBH. when i built mine above i looked at literally hundreds of pictures in books and on the net and i don't think i actually found 2 the same mine for example is qite near but shouldnt really have red shock tops at the rear and it has the wrong front brake....Oh well

and by the way...........Hi Nigel

[machten]

Phil,

On a somewhat urelated topic there are pics of a basically unmolested 1958 175 Sport here...

http://s941.photobucket.com/user/machten1960/library/#/user/machten1960/library/Ducati%20Forum%20Posts/1958%20175%20Sport?sort=3&page=1&_suid=1378032203820023085115195703232

Other than a few electrical connection replacements, I think it's pretty original. I know you have a 1957 "double welded" job in your collection, but if this is of any value, feel free to use it. I've had much benefit to me over the years from you publishing your photos.

Kev

[Paddy]

Kev
They are great pictures, i used them for detail in my build. I note that what i think is the oil feed up the barrel lines up with the crankcase on that 175 as it does on my 200 but is out of line on the bike in Phils pictures ?? Both Phils and the 175 are A series so i am surprised there is a difference there ?

[LaceyDucati]

Hi Paddy

Nice job, turned out very nice, will definitely try Ashford chrome for my next restoration. Did I see you've got it up for sale?

Nigel

[Paddy]

Hi Nige
it has an excellent Lacey piston and gasket set as well as one of your excellent clutch push rod seal kits with the brass insert.

[PhilA]

Thanks all! Here are some larger pics:

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/PA-Ducati08-094.jpg
http://www.philaphoto.com/images/PA-Ducati08-096.jpg
http://www.philaphoto.com/images/PA-Ducati08-101.jpg

It is just that all the period pics of the 200 Elite I've seen don't have the "lip" at the rear of the seat and have painted top halves of the shocks. Whereas the single period pic of the '59 200TS I have seen (in Ian's Standard Catalog p32) has the "lipped" seat and unpainted shocks - but not the twin muffler or small guards. A lot of Carlo's bikes weren't perfect restorations by any means, and as I try to ID the bikes I shoot as accurately as possible for reference purposes, I'd like to get it right!

[Paddy]

I will commit then..
I am sure this is a 1959 200 a series Elite.
The crankcases and barrel are most definitely A series. You can see compared to my B series they are quite different particularly the hight of the "platform" the barrel sits on.
Its shock tops should not be painted and are correct ( i suspect people like me paint them because when restoring its just a much more durable finish than polished alloy) they were painted on the 175.
Various seats were fitted from new both in design and make so you cant draw a conclusion from that ( mine originally had a 2 tone red and black seat.) some had a strap.

The frame in your picture has a lug and screw fixing on the rail under the seat. that seem peculiar to DM200E frames, what is odd is your frame has the later swing arm set up with spindle fixed to the swing arm and turning in the frame where as all other 200E frames i have seen have the spindle clamped by the frame and turning in the swing arm.


this frame number DM200E 155218 1GM1007OM
Yours is ............DM200E 154597 1GM1007OM

This is another of my elites. This is a DM200E frame, note the lug like yours under the seat but this has the swing arm spindle clamp on the frame.

[Jon Pegler]

The M8 threaded lug on the seat loop was fitted to the Elite frames from 1961.
It was still fitted on the 200GT frame until the end of production in 1967 (Italian machines).
It was also used on the 1961 250 Diana and Monza for one year only.
These frames should all be of the B-type, with the swinging arm bushes in the arm itself and not the frame like the A-type.
According to the Elite parts book, the rear spring covers were painted on the 175S, 200SS and 200TS.
They were unpainted, polished alloy on the 200E.
I would question the dating of some of the Elites from the late 1950s/early 60s.
Robert Millar's list seems to contain some anomalies.
I'm not sure that engine and frame numbers were much higher than 150--- by 1960.
I would be interested to hear what the engine and frame numbers are from other Elite owners and what year they claim for their machine, and on what basis they date it (e.g owned it from new etc.) .

Jon