450 starting procedure

[amartina75]

Hello,
After a very long restoration, my 450 Jupiter is finally finished. I rode it for the first time yesterday, it was awsome. it was the first time the bike has been ridden in 30 years.
My question is for those who own 450's what kind of routine do you use to get it started? the first time i tried to kickstart it 4 months ago it kicked back so hard it broke my ankle
and i am still limping from it. so I am pretty gun shy when i kick it now. It takes a few kicks to get it started but I am tending to let the valve lifter go late caus i dont want it to put me in the hospital again. Any pointers would be appreciated
Thanks,
Aaron

[Jordan]

My method for all Ducati OHC singles including 450:
Stand on left side of bike, use right foot to start (I'm right-handed).
Ign off, break clutch stiction.
Push on kick lever until compression. My 450 was a desmo with no comp release, so just keeping pressure on the lever got it over TDC.
Let lever back up to top, ign switch on (and choke or tickler if needed).
Go for it. Worked when I was a 9 stone weakling.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote="amartina75"]
" My question is for those who own 450's what kind of routine do you use to get it started? the first time i tried to kickstart it 4 months ago it kicked back so hard "

____ You most-likely don't have your 450's static-ign.timing set at 0-degrees/TDC, as that's the factory-recommended setting (intended to eliminate such kick-backs).
__ The starting-procedure is...
1st - turn-on a petcock (& wait a few seconds)...
2nd - pull-on choke-lever (unless engine is already fairly warm)...
3rd - use kick-lever to bring engine towards TDC until you feel compression-resistance...
4th - pull comp.release-handlever and (with foot on kick-lever) feel the compression bleed-away & slowly allow kick-lever to minimally move just enough to advance the engine ever-so-slightly past TDC, and then release the cr.hand-lever...
5th - turn-on ign.key...
6th - allow for the resetting of the kick-lever angle-position for obtaining maximum engine-rotation, and then go-ahead & go-through with a complete full-force kick-through of the foot-lever (to fully turn-over the engine, with all your confidence).
__ It's really not necessary to turn-off the ign.key for any additional starting-attempts (so long as the ign.timing is-not too far advanced), as simply being sure that the comp.release holds the ex.valve open near TDC, will adequately keep the engine from being able to fire-off (earlier than intended).
__ With the stock-carb (and everything-else all set-up correctly), you can expect 1-kick start-ups with engine either cold or hot.
____ Please let us know how it all works-out for you.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[DanM]

Aaron,
I use the starting procedure Bob recommends for my Sebring 350 and it works for me. It usually starts on the first kick when warm and the second or third kick when cold. Don't use the compression release after you've eased it past compression. I know the 450 manual says to use it, but I tried it on my 350 and it wouldn't start.
Dan

[amartina75]

Thanks all for the information,
Bob, when it kicked back on me it was the first time i tried to start it. The timing has been set only statically with a degree wheel.
not with the use of a test light, so I am sure it needs to be adjusted as you say. my brother has a timing tool you use with the bike
running. I do need to get that done.

I really can't imagine kicking the bike without using the comp. release. It seems like all of you are saying I should only use it to get the piston
in the right position and not use it when kicking the bike. The owners manual does say to use the lever when kicking the bike, why not use it?
my 250 kicked back on me once and it hurt for a few minutes, i walked it off and i was fine. my 450 put me in the hospital and may have done
permanent damage. there is just way more energy there to do damage. yes it was mostly user error that caused my problem but i cant afford to
have anything like that happen again.
thanks,
Aaron

[machten]

I often get asked to start other peoples Ducs including some "difficult to start" 450 desmos and roundcases bored out to 850+ cc's. If properly set up and fettled, stock Ducati singles should be easy to start.

Besides the "set up" to ensure you have enough fuel in the chamber to provide a rich enough starting mixture and the positioning at TDC, the greatest mistake I find people make that leads to a kick back is to be too tentative on the kick. This becomes a self fulfilling prophesy once bitten as people end up kicking slower and (worse) shorter. Bad mistake!

Here's my experiences with a 450 Mark 3...My Mark 3 has CDI ignition...

Having the static timing at 0 degrees is fine for the purposes of starting. On my 450 when cold...

taps on
choke on
two kicks though with no ignition
position at TDC (between the inlet and exhaust valve spring tension on the cam)
No throttle
No valve lifter
ignition on
kick though like you mean it (you need to plan to kick solidly through past 6 o'clock - you'll actually probably only kick to close to 6 o'clock and it will have fired up already)

after it starts, throttle it and drop the choke

My 450 will start cold on that pattern first kick 9 times out of ten with no kick back at all and idle smoothly without any intervention within 30 seconds. So does my 250 desmo (SS1 so flooding rather than choke), my 750 sport, my 750 GT and my squarecase twins.

When hot, I do everything the same (including the priming stage - other than the SS1 based 250 desmo) but start with choke off but am ready to twist the throttle after first firing earlier than cold.

I can't over emphasise the importance on the 450 cc to kick hard and long. It works for me anyway. (I've never figured out starting with the valve decompressor and never found the need to)

Ventodue (Craig) I think posted some 450 Scrambler starting instructions at some stage. Riding with him in France last year, I never saw him use more than one kick hot or cold. He's been using a 450 single much longer than me and he may have some good (and better) advice.


Kev

[Ventodue]

Ventodue (Craig) I think posted some 450 Scrambler starting instructions at some stage. Riding with him in France last year, I never saw him use more than one kick hot or cold. He's been using a 450 single much longer than me and he may have some good (and better) advice.

Don't know about better advice, Kev . But here goes anyways ...

I really can't imagine kicking the bike without using the comp. release. It seems like all of you are saying I should only use it to get the piston in the right position and not use it when kicking the bike.

Yes, Aaron - that's right. Simply use the compression release to help you ease the piston past compression.*

Then, as Kev says, kick right the way thru. The engine will fire towards the bottom of the swing of the kicker. There's no need to be super agressive, but you certainly need to do it with intent . If you pussy it, you risk the beast back-firing on you - especially if, as Bob points out, the static timing is over-advanced. (And yes, as you discovered , a back-firing 450 will do you damage ...).

HTH

Craig

Btw, when starting from warm, no choke (nat'). Just crack the throttle open a little.

* As Kev says, this stage is not even essential. It just makes life easier.

[amartina75]

ok, Thanks for all the advice, I will give it a go once I am sure the timing is set right. I have found it difficult to judge exactly where the piston is in the past.
I guess that is just something I need to practice at getting the feel for it. Perhaps when I don't have to limp up to the bike when I go to start it, I will be less afraid of it
Thanks,
Aaron

[graeme]

If (with the ignition off) you push on the kick start you will feel the piston getting to tdc then slightly depress the decompression you should feel the kickstart lever feel like it gets easy then slightly hard again just before the piston goes down and the lever is easy again.
It's that slight easy part that is where you need to be to kick it into life, without it kicking back like a howitzer under your foot.
You can feel this tdc with out using the decompression by just leaving slight pressure on the kick lever.

(clutch start in 1st gear if needed, other gears just lock the rear wheel)

Hope your ankle gets better soon,
Graeme

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote="amartina75"]
" Bob, when it kicked back on me it was the first time i tried to start it. The timing has been set only statically with a degree wheel. "

____ Well if it was then set CORRECTLY at 0-degrees/TDC, THEN it would be next-to impossible to achieve any kick-back !



" my brother has a timing tool you use with the bike
running. I do need to get that done. "

____ Then I hope he doesn't run out of breath while doing it that way ! _ I'd really expect that perhaps it could be a bit more convenient if he'd instead try it with merely-just the engine itself "running" !?
__ But actually, so long as the AAU is working freely as normal, it should ONLY be necessary to make-sure that the STATIC-timing is set RIGHTly ! _ And considering YOUR concern, it would then be preferred that your error slightly with the static-ign.timing set towards 1-degree ATDC.



" I really can't imagine kicking the bike without using the comp. release. "

____ Then I imagine your "bike" has accumilated a few dents & toe-prints !?
__ Anyway, there has been another/alternet starting-method I've SEEN practiced by others -(older big-single/thrumper-riders) who used the comp.release hold-method which requires holding-in the release-lever while kicking the kick-lever with ALL their possible mite, (which can work well enough for stouter-built/heavier-set fellas)...
Without much concern of exactly where the crankshaft-position had last come to rest,
whilst keeping the comp.release engaged, they'd STRONGLY kick-over the engine with such intended excessive force so as to set-off the crankshaft rather spinning FAST enough so that they could then pop/drop their hold of the cr.hand-lever and HOPE that it would happen to occur at a point just before the comp.stroke (and then set-off the engine to running). _ But that method takes a bit of practice before ya manage to finally learn & master the 'feel' of exactly WHEN to let-go of the cr.lever ! _ And until then, it's a matter of happen-chance & luck to obtain any success with that kicking-method,, and even the BIG-guys could get tuckered-out before any starting-success (especially on a hot-day !). _ Also, that method (before being mastered) doesn't necessarily avoid a kick-back (as the crankshaft slows-down near the end of it's intense spin).
So it's best to learn what the comp.release can best do for you... 'RELEASE' the (built-up) compression, before kick-starting.



" It seems like all of you are saying I should only use it to get the piston
in the right position and not use it when kicking the bike. "

____ So who taught you that old starting-method of engaging the cr.hand-lever WHILST kicking-over the engine ? _ Are you at-least as big & stout as that guy ?
__ In any case, it's certainly no-doubt better for you to learn the particular method which most-all of us have come to realize works the best ! _ And that's what we've all been explaning pretty-much the same. ...
__ After you feel the resistance of the compression build-up against your foot, THEN use the cr.lever to bleed-off that resistance just enough to get the piston up-to TDC (or very-SLIGHTLY past). _ Cuz then that way, (with cr.lever next-then released),, you'll thusly have the MOST-possible crankshaft rotation-travel left, before the next comp.stroke begins and-thus the MOST amount of time to transfer momentum-energy into the flywheel to help overcome the NEXT up-coming compression-resistance rotation-point, and-thus get-through the expected Otto-cycle (and start-up).



" The owners manual does say to use the lever when kicking the bike, why not use it? "

____ I'd have to see that stated in the owner's-manual in-order to believe it ! - Why would it EVER suggest "kicking the bike" at ANY time ? _ Is that suggested-procedure only supposed to be done just whenever ya get mad cuz ya can't get the "bike running" on a hot-day, or what ?
__ Anyhow,, if you perform the kick-starting method as you've been instructed here (by most-all in this thread), then would you not actually be making SOME 'use' of the comp.release-lever then ??
It seems you may've misunderstood that which the maunual had actually intended, (as it probably didn't explain the actual use of the cr.lever itself),, cuz if ya don't properly 'time' the use of the cr.lever (in relation to the Otto-cycle/crankshaft-postion), then not-only will the comp.release not be able to help, but it also could actually keep the engine from being able to run, as well !!
__ If so, then you would-NOT be the very-FIRST who I've heard-of who had gathered that the cr.lever is supposed to be KEPT held-in (while trying to get the engine started), and left-engaged that-way until once the enguine starts running ! _ As in the past, I've had at-least two others ask me how to get their 350/450 Dukes started-up after they had thought that they were supposed to use the comp.release that same way.
I really don't know where they had gotten such an idea from, but
perhaps they both had read the same poor-English that you've probably read in the owner's-manual !?



" I will give it a go once I am sure the timing is set right. "

____ If you understand & use the ks.method which I have recommended, then it should not matter,
providing of-course, that your ign.timing is just SLIGHTLY advanced.



" I have found it difficult to judge exactly where the piston is in the past. "

____ Then it seems that you must've been holding-in the cr.lever TOO-long, all the time. - (Which is a sure way to keep the engine from ever getting started.)



" I guess that is just something I need to practice at getting the feel for it. "

____ Right, that's ACTUALLY practicing with the comp.release itself, in the particular manor which can actually ALLOW you to feel the compression build up (in the foot-lever), so that you can then possibly get the chance to more-so determine about where the piston-location must be.



" Perhaps when I don't have to limp up to the bike when I go to start it, I will be less afraid of it "

____ Rather,, you'll be less afraid, once you have understood & practiced how to properly make the BEST-use of your 450-Duke's compression-release !


HOPEful-Cheers,
-Bob

PS. Please excuse my rather lame-attempts at minor-humor...
I just don't care-much for any Duke to be OVER-much referred-to as a mere "bike" all the time.