Motoscrubs.com

Hello Motoscrubs
I have a ducati 450 scrambler in my shop and am looking for some information. I have searched for a manual that covers this bike as far as torque specs but have not been having much luck. I have some info on the bike but it seems that most of the information concerns the earlier bikes/motors. Is there a good book on the later singles?

I have found little on these bikes in the way of information a few out of print books, that may or may not tell me much. Simple things like what the oem gearing should be or front sprocket nut torque.

Thanks

You're likely to get some good information within a day, but let me tell you that if there was a good book out there that specified torques, tools, diss-assembly and re-assembly techniques correctly for Ducati singles this forum probably wouldn't exist. That's the truth.

There is very little information out there, and some small amount of what is out there in print is wrong which just compounds the need for a forum like ours.

You are likely to learn what torque values work for different people that have experience (having rebuilt 2 engines or better.) In most cases the replies you will see will corroborate each other which will give you confidence as to their accuracy.

Welcome to the forum.


Jim

Standard gearing for a 450 SCR was 12/35 (1:2.917). The factory also offered a 13-tooth front sprocket, and 33, 37, 39 41 and 43-tooth rears.

As to torque settings :

Well, these bikes date from an era when listing out a set of torque values was still fairly ununusual. In fact, even with the twins, Ducati weren't too forthcoming ... "Tighten", is what the instruction normally says. So, if you're not too sure what "tighten" means, what to do?

2 suggestions:
1. Use the standard spec for a 8.8 grade bolt, taking into account:
a) The material you're threading into - e.g. going into aluminium, back the torque off by 25-30%.
b) Any thread lubrication you're using. 10% -15% is often quoted as a suitable reduction for an oiled thread, for example.

2. Use a spec from a similar installation elsewhere. And on this occasion, we're lucky 'cos Ducati used the self same nut, part #0205.16.010, for the clutch drum ... and gave us a torque value!

8.3-9.7 Kgm = 81-95 Nm = 60-70 lb/ft.

(Source: The factory workshop manual, aka "4 and 5-speed Ducati Single Overhead Camshaft Motor Cycles, Instructions for Service Stations and Ducati Repair Shops".)

HTH

Craig

Thank you Jim and Craig.

I have spent a fair amount of time looking for information, I am continually surprised with the lack of info. I have over 15 years of working on Ducatis professionally 10 of which were at one of the US's top dealerships. We saw a decent amount of Bevel twins and a few singles but as one of the guys in the back I never had to hunt parts and information down. At first I just assumed it was the age and the lack of internet help due to the bikes age, but there seems to be precious little in print as well.

This bike is running 13/35 gearing I would guess someone changed the original 33 to a larger one as there were two master links. I test fit a 530 o-ring chain and it is not going to fit (width wise) so it will stay non-o-ring. It should last plenty long given the power. I was surprised no one had a 520 conversion as the width is the same, someone just needs to make the sprockets and then there would be good o-ring chains that would easily last a long time.

I see there was a book on the later singles that is out of print, I just don't know if there is any good info in it before tracking one down and paying too much money. I do have a few books that seem to cover more narrow case bikes and little on 450's. Last year I had a 450 desmo go through the shop and was thrilled to see I need to stock up on another desmo shim set

For torque figures I use the following:

Head Bolts 25 lb/ft. (low end of the factory figures. but has always worked for me)
Bevel nuts (L/H) 35 lb/ft.
Crank main nut 70 lb/ft.
Clutch centre 60 lb/ft. ( Bit more than than it should be, but seems to help with paranoia and nut loosening, not had one strip!)
Gearbox sprocket nut 50 lb/ft. (avoid any more than this as it can lead to distorting or cracking the 2mm shim inside the gearbox)

As far as I remember the factory figures are in the manual, which is a narrowcase one. I have never seen a widecase Manual only supplements covering any major differences.

As for 520 sprockets, nice Idea, but as someone who supplies sprockets there has to be a limit to how many sizes, teeth and pitch you can stock! You could always get a 530 front skimmed down and get a rear easily made up. Not sure many single owners use there bikes enough to warrant an 'O' ring chain, and of course they do sap power I have used 520 chains on 450 race bikes, but to be honest a good quality 428 chain works plenty well enough, even round the gruelling Isle of Man Mountain circuit.

Hope this helps

Nigel

There you go, Ducvet - great stuff from Nigel, as always! Thanks, Nigel - that you find the time to help out here is most appreciated. (Btw, all I could find for the gearbox sprocket nut was one of those famous instructions, " ...tighten the nut with a standard ch. 24 spanner" (page 84) )

As to books, Ducvet - well, I think you’ll find there’s more available than you might at first think! Here are a few pointers:

As Nigel says, I don't know of there ever being a full factory workshop manual specific to the widecases. So that leaves us with:

1. The factory narrowcase workshop manual. For all its peculiarities, I guess this has to be our starting point ...
There were at least 3 versions, but I don't believe they differ much in practice (let's be honest, how different can they be?). There’s a downloadable version of one edition here:
http://www.italian-motorbikes.com/Pagin ... %20ita.htm

And a hard copy of another version can be had from Steve Allen here:
https://store.bevelheaven.com/books-dvd ... 0-sebring/

In addition, it was basically re-published by Clymer (again in at least 3 editions) as their "Ducati Service Repair Handbook, 160 250 350 450 cc through 1974" . Copies of this come up on eBay often enuf - and Nigel has this one listed in his on-line shop:
http://www.laceyducati.com/ducati-parts ... 04a12d370f

1a. The factory published a supplement to the basic manual to cover (in theory) the wide cases (including the 450s which, of course, only appeared as widecases). It's a slim work of 16 pages, with a fair amount of instructions along the lines, "As a whole, follow the description in the Work Shop Manual" .

2. There's a Haynes manual for the widecases. This does have its use, especially if you own a Desmo; but it should be read with all the care that normally applies to Haynes manuals The labelling of the wiring diagrams at the back are reversed, for example. Again, copies often crop up on eBay.

3. A photograph-rich reference for the widecases is Massimo Clarke's, "Scrambler, Desmo e Mark 3". Written in Italian and long out of print, it also has an amount of technical info which you won't find elsewhere, such as the steel composition used in the conrods, and their level of hardening. It even has exotic stuff like dimensioned copies of original design drawings.

4. There’s a MotocCiclismo Restoration guide to the Scrambler. In Italian, limited use.

5. Then there’s Tom Bailey’s two books, “Ducati Singles First Person” and “Ducati Singles Masterbook Workshop Manual”. The first is an interesting insight into “How it Was Then”, and is mainly concerned with the narrowcases. The second is (again) mainly a re-print of the factory workshop manual with a few additional bits of advice thrown in. Both are available from Tom direct: tom@motyeliab.com.

6. Going back in time, Mick Walker produced “Ducati Singles” and "Ducati Singles Restoration”. Personally, I like these, perhaps because I knew Mick from back when I had my first Ducati and he was the only person in the UK who seemed to care or to have any idea what he was talking about! Lots of info and photos, plus technical summaries covering lots of models. Again, copies come up on eBay - first editions tend to command high(er) prices.

And finally, but by no means least:
7. There can be a surprising amount of information in the owner’s handbooks. Both originals and copies can be had relatively easily, often as downloadable versions off Tinternet.

8. The parts books must be a primary reference source. The wide case version originally came in 2 volumes. Genuine copies tend to be sought after, and are probably best kept on the shelf rather than used in the workshop; but good quality and practical copies are still be around - Stein Dinse (I think it was ..?) in Germany did a re-publication, for example.

For copies of these, browse (for example) Steve Allen’s site at https://store.bevelheaven.com/index.php?p=home

Just a few thoughts to start you off …

Ciao

Craig

Ventodue wrote:Standard gearing for a 450 SCR was 12/35 (1:2.917). The factory also offered a 13-tooth front sprocket, and 33, 37, 39 41 and 43-tooth rears.
...Craig

My RT is used for flat track racing. I run a 12 on the front, and a few rears ranging from 36-50. I've often thought that it might be helpful to have an 11 front in my kit. Does anyone produce that part?

Thank you Nigel and Craig
Nigel I take it you have a motorcycle Business? Do you have a web site?
I have more single owners bringing me bikes so I may be looking for some parts in the future, happy to send some business your way.

On the sprocket torque, The thing that is killing me is I was sure I had it in one of my searches but cannot find it. Yes I will use A generic "good enough " torque figure as it should be plenty safe from backing itself off. If I come across something I will post it up.

Next: On to the Delorto carburetor.
I am pretty sure I have the specs. on this one, with the ethanol in our fuel now I am sure to need to fatten that up a bit but parts are at least available.

Ducvet wrote: Next: On to the Delorto carburetor.
I am pretty sure I have the specs. on this one, with the ethanol in our fuel now I am sure to need to fatten that up a bit but parts are at least available.

If the bike is still carrying its original VHB 29AD ...

FWIW, I find no problems running my 450 SCR with the standard specs, even using E10 fuel. The standard specs were:
Main jet: 130
Idle jet: 50
Needle: V7 (clip on middle notch)
Slide: 60 (very hard to find new, now)
Atomiser: 260T.

Ciao

Craig

Craig
Thank you I will see what is in mine and post it up. I am sure it was not used in a decade or two, bike is being wired now so when I get back to the Carbs I will check it out.
I was not aware that France had E10, We have had all kinds of problems with Ethanol destroying fuel tanks,engines (small motors) and generally making motors run poorly.

Could be worse we could be in the boating industry, they are getting a fair amount of work repairing Ethanol issues.