The SCR has a standard scrambler cam in it now.
Will the grey cam work in the 450 or is it better to leave the standard cam in there?
(32 dellorto and short scrambler muffler)
Cam measures 23/32, 23/31.45 mm
Graeme
450 and cams
Moderator: ajleone
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graeme
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- Location: Tasmania Australia
450 and cams
I'm pretty sure I have a gray (grey) cam,,, and a 450 scrambler that I'd like to rebuild in the future.
The SCR has a standard scrambler cam in it now.
Will the grey cam work in the 450 or is it better to leave the standard cam in there?
(32 dellorto and short scrambler muffler)
Cam measures 23/32, 23/31.45 mm
Graeme
The SCR has a standard scrambler cam in it now.
Will the grey cam work in the 450 or is it better to leave the standard cam in there?
(32 dellorto and short scrambler muffler)
Cam measures 23/32, 23/31.45 mm
Graeme
Last edited by graeme on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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graeme
- Posts: 1006
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:00 am
- Location: Tasmania Australia
Re: 450 and cams
Also,
I've been cleaning up and putting away parts (for moving) that have been collected over the years.
I've found a cam that has the shaft beveled down ( tapered) that is 120mm long, is this a narrow case cam?
And some springer cams that are 126 mm long, wide case 450 I presume?
Desmo cams are 130mm long.
graeme
On the left
I've been cleaning up and putting away parts (for moving) that have been collected over the years.
I've found a cam that has the shaft beveled down ( tapered) that is 120mm long, is this a narrow case cam?
And some springer cams that are 126 mm long, wide case 450 I presume?
Desmo cams are 130mm long.
graeme
On the left
Last edited by graeme on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: 450 and cams
____ Boy-O-boy, am I ever sorry that I've been stuck off-line for so long ! ... As this stuff is my second-favorite Duke-related topic, (electrical-systems being the first) !
So-thus it may take an extra-while for me to add all I wish to get included, (in this post's build-up).
____ On the subject of Ducati-manufactured camshafts made for use in 450-model springer-engines,
I unfortunately don't KNOW all I'd like to know ! _ And due to learning that Ducati didn't serve the rest of the world as they had the U.S.A., I can't be too sure of which camshaft-models were actually originally installed in ALL 450-springer models exported from Italy. _ So-thus I can't argue whether a cam found in another country's imported Duke is original-stock or not,, but with that point now understood, I'll offer what I know to be the case(s) for here within the U.S. ...
" I'm pretty sure I have a gray (grey) cam,,, "
____ Unfortunately, I believe that Ducati assigned the 'Gray' color-code to two different camshafts...
The original Gray-cam was designed for the 250 Mach-I Duke-model, thus it's designation-name is referred-to as the 'M1-cam'. ...
However, a somewhat milder version of it machined as a WideCase-version, is employed in the w-c.250Mark-3 Duke-model, (which is not to be confused with the original Mark-III 'Red' cam.model !), so-thus IT's designation-name is the 250Mark-3 cam-model.
__ While these two camshafts are considerably different, to the point that they really DESERVE differing color-codes, it's really too-bad that they seem to, (according to the parts-books), share the very-same color-code. _ This unfortunate circumstance was probably allowed because their valve-timing & lift are fairly close, (but ya can tell them apart at a glance by noting that the w-c.Gray-cam version has a notably smaller base-circle ! - [Which is a feature of all w-c.camshafts] ). _ Taking measurements of both Gray-cam.models reveals that the M1-cam has slightly higher lobe-lifts than the M3.version, (not to mention slightly wilder valve-timing).
" a 450 scrambler that I'd like to rebuild in the future. "
____ One of the 450-models came with a camshaft that's very quite similar to the Gray-cam, valve-timing-wise,, but I can't offer any other info/data on it as I've never had or even seen one of such, (and rely on another source of info about it's existence).
__ But if your 450Scrambler-model came with the same cam.model* as most, (* that being the 1968-version of the w-c.250Scr.cam), then your 450 will run considerably stronger with most any other of the wilder cam-models ! ...
__ I've done a LOT of experimenting with various Duke-cam.models in various Duke-engines, and while I've never installed a 'Mk-III' or 'M1' cam.model in a 450, I have tried a 'Mk3' cam in a 450 (which HAD had the stock std.250/450 Scr.cam originally-installed),, and it made a very notable improvement in overall power-output ! _ So I can highly-recommend that swap/change !
" The SCR has a standard scrambler cam in it now. "
____ That's fairly fair to state,, cuz as far as I know, most-all 450Scranbler-models were originally-stock with the 'White' w-c.Scrambler-cam.model (which was ACTUALLY the camshaft that was first employed within the '1968 w-c.250Scrambler' [BEFORE the 450-engine went into production !]).
__ But what's not understood by many, is that Ducati did (somewhat later) actually design a camshaft SPECIFICALLY for the 450Scrambler-model,, but so far as I-myself know, THAT cam.model was never installed by the factory, (but I've heard-tale that it was installed in some production-run or another, of the 450-engine).
" Will the grey cam work in the 450 or is it better to leave the standard cam in there? "
____ If your 450 indeed has the common/standard w-c 'White' Scrambler-cam.model, then by all means ditch that cam,, as THAT cam.model has NO-business being in any 450-engine (unless perhaps used exclusively for hill-climbing). _ Cuz that cam.model really starves/chokes a 450 from being able to sufficiently fill it's lungs (so to speak) !
__ As for trying-out your Gray/M1-cam.model in your 450, I believe that you'd then get at-LEAST the GREAT-result which I-myself discovered with the Gray/Mk3-cam.model,, however, your M1-camshaft's larger base-circle may possibly present a valve-adjustment issue for you, especially if the cyl.head's valve-seats have been over-worn or ground-down too much. _ The negative results of which could possibly be that you'd then not be able to find valve-shims which are thin enough to suit, (as they don't come any thinner than 2mm, and you may possibly end-up with only just 1.0 to .5mm or less of clearance for fitting a v.shim into).
In the past when I've run-into such an issue, I've either had to scrap the idea of fitting such a n-c.cam into my w-c.head-project, or-else grind-down the valve-shims and/or the valve-stems, (so that I could then achieve proper running valve-clearance).
It's something you'd have to check-out to be sure, but I'd guess that there's at-least a 75% chance that the M1-cam would fit-in well enough, without any such clearance concern.
" Cam measures 23/32, 23/31.45 mm "
____ That is indeed the n-c.version Gray/M1-cam.model ! _ A very DESIRABLE camshaft !
Where did you find it ?
__ If the valve-shims which are currently installed in your 450-head are fairly-over 3mm thick, then you'll probably not have any un-ordinary troubles fitting that M1-camshaft in-with it's valve-train.
" I've found a cam that has the shaft beveled down ( tapered) that is 120mm long, is this a narrow case cam? "
____ Well that seems to be a fair deduction but, all 250*/350/450 (*except the 69x66mm 250) n-c & w-c models have camshafts which are of the very-same length, of 126mm !
__ The shorter camshafts are from the 175/200 models, which have cylinder-heads that have a 'square' bolt-pattern...
The 250-models (with the 74mm-bore) needed to have their left & right bolt-pairs relocated/widened-apart (for the larger cylinder & head bore-size), and-so at that time, the camshafts got widened/(lengthened) as well ! _ Although such was not actually needed to be done, as the shorter camshafts will fit & work within the newer cyl.head design. _ I-myself have even done so but, I then prefer to fit a wider bearing into the bearing-support cap/cover.
__ If you could, it would be nice to see a picture posted of your 175/200-camshaft, (preferably placed side-by-side with your longer n-c.camshaft).
" And some springer cams that are 126 mm long, wide case 450 I presume? "
____ They all must be 250/350/450 n-c/w-c camshafts !
If you post pix of them all, I may then be able to identify their cam.models for you.
____ I WAS planning on adding more 450-cam info here in THIS post, but now I guess I'll add it later in another post.
Duke-Cheers,
-Bob
So-thus it may take an extra-while for me to add all I wish to get included, (in this post's build-up).
____ On the subject of Ducati-manufactured camshafts made for use in 450-model springer-engines,
I unfortunately don't KNOW all I'd like to know ! _ And due to learning that Ducati didn't serve the rest of the world as they had the U.S.A., I can't be too sure of which camshaft-models were actually originally installed in ALL 450-springer models exported from Italy. _ So-thus I can't argue whether a cam found in another country's imported Duke is original-stock or not,, but with that point now understood, I'll offer what I know to be the case(s) for here within the U.S. ...
" I'm pretty sure I have a gray (grey) cam,,, "
____ Unfortunately, I believe that Ducati assigned the 'Gray' color-code to two different camshafts...
The original Gray-cam was designed for the 250 Mach-I Duke-model, thus it's designation-name is referred-to as the 'M1-cam'. ...
However, a somewhat milder version of it machined as a WideCase-version, is employed in the w-c.250Mark-3 Duke-model, (which is not to be confused with the original Mark-III 'Red' cam.model !), so-thus IT's designation-name is the 250Mark-3 cam-model.
__ While these two camshafts are considerably different, to the point that they really DESERVE differing color-codes, it's really too-bad that they seem to, (according to the parts-books), share the very-same color-code. _ This unfortunate circumstance was probably allowed because their valve-timing & lift are fairly close, (but ya can tell them apart at a glance by noting that the w-c.Gray-cam version has a notably smaller base-circle ! - [Which is a feature of all w-c.camshafts] ). _ Taking measurements of both Gray-cam.models reveals that the M1-cam has slightly higher lobe-lifts than the M3.version, (not to mention slightly wilder valve-timing).
" a 450 scrambler that I'd like to rebuild in the future. "
____ One of the 450-models came with a camshaft that's very quite similar to the Gray-cam, valve-timing-wise,, but I can't offer any other info/data on it as I've never had or even seen one of such, (and rely on another source of info about it's existence).
__ But if your 450Scrambler-model came with the same cam.model* as most, (* that being the 1968-version of the w-c.250Scr.cam), then your 450 will run considerably stronger with most any other of the wilder cam-models ! ...
__ I've done a LOT of experimenting with various Duke-cam.models in various Duke-engines, and while I've never installed a 'Mk-III' or 'M1' cam.model in a 450, I have tried a 'Mk3' cam in a 450 (which HAD had the stock std.250/450 Scr.cam originally-installed),, and it made a very notable improvement in overall power-output ! _ So I can highly-recommend that swap/change !
" The SCR has a standard scrambler cam in it now. "
____ That's fairly fair to state,, cuz as far as I know, most-all 450Scranbler-models were originally-stock with the 'White' w-c.Scrambler-cam.model (which was ACTUALLY the camshaft that was first employed within the '1968 w-c.250Scrambler' [BEFORE the 450-engine went into production !]).
__ But what's not understood by many, is that Ducati did (somewhat later) actually design a camshaft SPECIFICALLY for the 450Scrambler-model,, but so far as I-myself know, THAT cam.model was never installed by the factory, (but I've heard-tale that it was installed in some production-run or another, of the 450-engine).
" Will the grey cam work in the 450 or is it better to leave the standard cam in there? "
____ If your 450 indeed has the common/standard w-c 'White' Scrambler-cam.model, then by all means ditch that cam,, as THAT cam.model has NO-business being in any 450-engine (unless perhaps used exclusively for hill-climbing). _ Cuz that cam.model really starves/chokes a 450 from being able to sufficiently fill it's lungs (so to speak) !
__ As for trying-out your Gray/M1-cam.model in your 450, I believe that you'd then get at-LEAST the GREAT-result which I-myself discovered with the Gray/Mk3-cam.model,, however, your M1-camshaft's larger base-circle may possibly present a valve-adjustment issue for you, especially if the cyl.head's valve-seats have been over-worn or ground-down too much. _ The negative results of which could possibly be that you'd then not be able to find valve-shims which are thin enough to suit, (as they don't come any thinner than 2mm, and you may possibly end-up with only just 1.0 to .5mm or less of clearance for fitting a v.shim into).
In the past when I've run-into such an issue, I've either had to scrap the idea of fitting such a n-c.cam into my w-c.head-project, or-else grind-down the valve-shims and/or the valve-stems, (so that I could then achieve proper running valve-clearance).
It's something you'd have to check-out to be sure, but I'd guess that there's at-least a 75% chance that the M1-cam would fit-in well enough, without any such clearance concern.
" Cam measures 23/32, 23/31.45 mm "
____ That is indeed the n-c.version Gray/M1-cam.model ! _ A very DESIRABLE camshaft !
Where did you find it ?
__ If the valve-shims which are currently installed in your 450-head are fairly-over 3mm thick, then you'll probably not have any un-ordinary troubles fitting that M1-camshaft in-with it's valve-train.
" I've found a cam that has the shaft beveled down ( tapered) that is 120mm long, is this a narrow case cam? "
____ Well that seems to be a fair deduction but, all 250*/350/450 (*except the 69x66mm 250) n-c & w-c models have camshafts which are of the very-same length, of 126mm !
__ The shorter camshafts are from the 175/200 models, which have cylinder-heads that have a 'square' bolt-pattern...
The 250-models (with the 74mm-bore) needed to have their left & right bolt-pairs relocated/widened-apart (for the larger cylinder & head bore-size), and-so at that time, the camshafts got widened/(lengthened) as well ! _ Although such was not actually needed to be done, as the shorter camshafts will fit & work within the newer cyl.head design. _ I-myself have even done so but, I then prefer to fit a wider bearing into the bearing-support cap/cover.
__ If you could, it would be nice to see a picture posted of your 175/200-camshaft, (preferably placed side-by-side with your longer n-c.camshaft).
" And some springer cams that are 126 mm long, wide case 450 I presume? "
____ They all must be 250/350/450 n-c/w-c camshafts !
If you post pix of them all, I may then be able to identify their cam.models for you.
____ I WAS planning on adding more 450-cam info here in THIS post, but now I guess I'll add it later in another post.
Duke-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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graeme
- Posts: 1006
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:00 am
- Location: Tasmania Australia
Re: 450 and cams
Hello Bob,
I've added some pictures of the cams in question as I mknow you like pictures,
Regards
Graeme
I've added some pictures of the cams in question as I mknow you like pictures,
Regards
Graeme
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: 450 and cams
" I've added some pictures of the cams in question as I mknow you like pictures, "
____ What a perceptive coincidence,, as you must've posted them just as I was writing my wording suggesting that you do such ! _ Cuz I just-now noticed them posted, right-after I just posted my next-to-last update to my-own post, (which is now finished).
____ I've now adjusted one of your pictures of your M1-cam and placed it side-by-side with the cam.model which ought to be in your stock 450-Scrambler, (in hopes of making the obvious difference in their cam-lobes easy to notice).
Duke-Cheers,
-Bob
____ What a perceptive coincidence,, as you must've posted them just as I was writing my wording suggesting that you do such ! _ Cuz I just-now noticed them posted, right-after I just posted my next-to-last update to my-own post, (which is now finished).
____ I've now adjusted one of your pictures of your M1-cam and placed it side-by-side with the cam.model which ought to be in your stock 450-Scrambler, (in hopes of making the obvious difference in their cam-lobes easy to notice).
Duke-Cheers,
-Bob
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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graeme
- Posts: 1006
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:00 am
- Location: Tasmania Australia
Re: 450 and cams
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge Bob.
I don't know very much about the non desmo cams, (and I'm still learning on most things single related) so I appreciate your time answering my questions.
The 175/200cc cam was in with some 450 parts I was lucky enough to buy.
Regards
Graeme
I don't know very much about the non desmo cams, (and I'm still learning on most things single related) so I appreciate your time answering my questions.
The 175/200cc cam was in with some 450 parts I was lucky enough to buy.
Regards
Graeme
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: 450 and cams
____ It's my understanding that Ducati especially designed two or three differing camshaft-models specifically for the 450 springer-engine...
One for the 450-Scrambler, one for the 450Mark-3, and another-one for racing the 450 springer-engine. _ But I've never gotten my hands on any of those (real)- '450' (springer-engine) cam.models,, as the racing-version always happened to be kept on back-order, and the (non DESMO) 450-models imported into the U.S. seemingly/apparently all came with the w-c.250Scr camshaft-model, (which is way too mild for a 450 [although somewhat fairly wild for a 250]), apparently because of financial-pressure from the powers-who-be -(think Italian-gov).
So thusly the most suitable preexisting Scr.type cam.model was hastily chosen for installation in most-all of the springer-engine 450-models.
__ The 450-Scrambler Duke-model would no-doubt run considerably stronger with the REAL '450Scrambler-cam', but even so, it would certainly run best (overall) with the 450Mark-3 cam.model.
But in place of those rare 450-camshafts, I'd suggest one of the Green&White cam.models...
The 350Mk3-cam with or without a muffler, or the 250F1-cam if running with a straight-through exhaust.
I've tried both of those cam.models (taken from stock w-c.350-models), in 450 springer-cyl.heads, and they really let the 450-engine come-alive, (putting them on equal-footing with the std.450DESMO-engine) !
So if you wish further improved power for your 450, then you ought consider swapping your M1-cam for one of the G&W.cam-models.
__ Unfortunately, I never acquired springer-engine '450' camshaft-specifications which were actually printed from the Ducati-factory itself,, and while the 450 cam.specs I do have come from trustworthy sources (who'd naturally attempt to provide their data without errors), I've never confirmed the 450-cam spec.data is indeed 100%-completely correct.
I never got the valve-timing specs for the "Special" 450 racing-camshaft but, I was told (by a top-notch source) that it's valve-timing is somewhere between the v-t.specs of the two G&W.cams, and that it's cam-lobe lift-heights are (about) 2mm higher -(in.12mm; ex.11mm).
I never got the lobe-lift figures for either of the '450-camshafts',, however, here are the valve-timing specs (which I-myself happen to have found) for those two 450-engine cam.models.....
_ 450Mk-3 __ IN. 60BT - 75AB _ EX. 75BB - 45AT
_ 450-Scr. __ IN. 30BT - 84AB _ EX. 63BB - 38AT
Again, these given '450-cam' valve-timing data-figures are-not from factory-printed sources, but I do trust that they are likely correct.
The only issue to be concerned with, is WHICH 450-engine production-runs actually included these ("REAL") 450-engine cam-models (instead of the more-common w-c.250Scr cam-model).
So all 450 springer-engine owners ought to be concerned if they were lucky enough to have gotten a 450 with an actual '450-cam' ! _ As it's my understanding that there were at least some number of 450-engines which did indeed get actual 450-camshafts.
It's too-bad however, that MOST 450-models got stuck with a camshaft which was not really originally-intended (by the factory cam.designer) to be employed in a 450-engine.
Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
One for the 450-Scrambler, one for the 450Mark-3, and another-one for racing the 450 springer-engine. _ But I've never gotten my hands on any of those (real)- '450' (springer-engine) cam.models,, as the racing-version always happened to be kept on back-order, and the (non DESMO) 450-models imported into the U.S. seemingly/apparently all came with the w-c.250Scr camshaft-model, (which is way too mild for a 450 [although somewhat fairly wild for a 250]), apparently because of financial-pressure from the powers-who-be -(think Italian-gov).
So thusly the most suitable preexisting Scr.type cam.model was hastily chosen for installation in most-all of the springer-engine 450-models.
__ The 450-Scrambler Duke-model would no-doubt run considerably stronger with the REAL '450Scrambler-cam', but even so, it would certainly run best (overall) with the 450Mark-3 cam.model.
But in place of those rare 450-camshafts, I'd suggest one of the Green&White cam.models...
The 350Mk3-cam with or without a muffler, or the 250F1-cam if running with a straight-through exhaust.
I've tried both of those cam.models (taken from stock w-c.350-models), in 450 springer-cyl.heads, and they really let the 450-engine come-alive, (putting them on equal-footing with the std.450DESMO-engine) !
So if you wish further improved power for your 450, then you ought consider swapping your M1-cam for one of the G&W.cam-models.
__ Unfortunately, I never acquired springer-engine '450' camshaft-specifications which were actually printed from the Ducati-factory itself,, and while the 450 cam.specs I do have come from trustworthy sources (who'd naturally attempt to provide their data without errors), I've never confirmed the 450-cam spec.data is indeed 100%-completely correct.
I never got the valve-timing specs for the "Special" 450 racing-camshaft but, I was told (by a top-notch source) that it's valve-timing is somewhere between the v-t.specs of the two G&W.cams, and that it's cam-lobe lift-heights are (about) 2mm higher -(in.12mm; ex.11mm).
I never got the lobe-lift figures for either of the '450-camshafts',, however, here are the valve-timing specs (which I-myself happen to have found) for those two 450-engine cam.models.....
_ 450Mk-3 __ IN. 60BT - 75AB _ EX. 75BB - 45AT
_ 450-Scr. __ IN. 30BT - 84AB _ EX. 63BB - 38AT
Again, these given '450-cam' valve-timing data-figures are-not from factory-printed sources, but I do trust that they are likely correct.
The only issue to be concerned with, is WHICH 450-engine production-runs actually included these ("REAL") 450-engine cam-models (instead of the more-common w-c.250Scr cam-model).
So all 450 springer-engine owners ought to be concerned if they were lucky enough to have gotten a 450 with an actual '450-cam' ! _ As it's my understanding that there were at least some number of 450-engines which did indeed get actual 450-camshafts.
It's too-bad however, that MOST 450-models got stuck with a camshaft which was not really originally-intended (by the factory cam.designer) to be employed in a 450-engine.
Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
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FLAG-POST
This is a TEMP.post...
____ A couple of our members have wondered if it's possible to let it be more obviously known if a thread-post has been added on-to,, and while I-myself don't out-rightly disagree for such need, I really don't think it's much of a loss that we don't have such a means readily available.
But for the sake of now letting it be more quickly realized, I'm just posting this new-post merely so as to cause this thread to (temporarily) come to the top & be noticed (that my post ABOVE, has been extended & finally finished).
____ THIS post will be deleted after it's purpose has had a fair bit of time to work - (under 24-hours).
Thanx,
DCT-Bob
____ BTW, my PM-inbox has been plugged-up, (as I don't care to take the time to get it all cleared-out),, so those of you who have sent me PMs concerning DUCATI, please just place your related post within the forum.
However, if ya wish to consult me about ANYthing well off-topic, (such as ghost-spirits or alien-creatures),, then please eMAIL-me at 'RobHan548 @ hotmail.com', instead.
____ A couple of our members have wondered if it's possible to let it be more obviously known if a thread-post has been added on-to,, and while I-myself don't out-rightly disagree for such need, I really don't think it's much of a loss that we don't have such a means readily available.
But for the sake of now letting it be more quickly realized, I'm just posting this new-post merely so as to cause this thread to (temporarily) come to the top & be noticed (that my post ABOVE, has been extended & finally finished).
____ THIS post will be deleted after it's purpose has had a fair bit of time to work - (under 24-hours).
Thanx,
DCT-Bob
____ BTW, my PM-inbox has been plugged-up, (as I don't care to take the time to get it all cleared-out),, so those of you who have sent me PMs concerning DUCATI, please just place your related post within the forum.
However, if ya wish to consult me about ANYthing well off-topic, (such as ghost-spirits or alien-creatures),, then please eMAIL-me at 'RobHan548 @ hotmail.com', instead.
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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graeme
- Posts: 1006
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:00 am
- Location: Tasmania Australia
Re: 450 and cams
That works Bob, I read the added information, thanks.
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