Monza Square headlight parts.

[averydad]

Well it all looked good but....there is a problem.
I have everything in place and the battery charged. I do not have the festoon bulbs for the circut board or the parking light. Nor do I have a high beam indicator light mounted.

When I push the key straight into the socket - The tail lamp lights up. The brake switch lights the brake light when I push the pedal. When I push the horn button I hear a click from the horn and the headlight bulb lights !
It stays lit as long as I hold the horn button.

When I turn the key to the right (as sitting on the bike) the horn button still lights the headlight bulb but no click is heard from the horn. The tail lamp lights and the brake light works as before.

When I turn the key to the left- the tail lamp lights and brake switch works, but the horn button no longer lights the headlamp nor clicks the horn.

I guess the problem is with the wiring of the CEV handle bar switch.
Here are pics of what I have.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" When I push the key straight into the socket - The tail lamp lights up.
When I push the horn button I hear a click from the horn and the headlight bulb lights ! "

____ This is a clue that you have the handlebar-switch connected-up wrong...
When the key is inserted, battery-power is then sent to the horn (by the blue wire as expected), then the power easily goes-through the high-load horn (like a short) and up-through the black horn-wire (not as expected !) to the lighting-circuit, thus constantly lighting the low-load tail-light, (regardless of the light-switch's set position).
__ If you had also experimented with the Hi/Low-switch, you then also would've found that the tail-light would've gone on & off, (depending on that switch's setting),, (IF I'm correct about my observations of your handlebar-switch's wiring-connections, as noted below).


" I guess the problem is with the wiring of the CEV handle bar switch.
Here are pics of what I have. "

____ Well since you've no-doubt guessed right, it seems you then also could've figured what it is that you've done wrong and moved-forward to fix your strange circuit-issues, yourself.
__ I'm not real familiar with the physical-setup of that non-stock handlebar-switch you have, and your pix don't make it real easy to tell for sure,, but it looks to me that you have the black-wire & green-wire reversed-connected with one-another's actually-intended location-points, (from where those two wires each actually should be connected-up at), as is indicated by the simple scheme-diagram shown on it's box.
So if that observation appears to indeed be correct at YOUR end as well, then go-ahead & swap the connection-locations of the black-wire with the green-wire.
__ Then report-back with the results, (which hopefully indicates that everything's been solved).
And if your headlight then will not light-up, that then further indicates to me that you have not yet GROUNDED your headlight-bulb's ground-wire connection,, which would explain why your headlight only lights-up when you press the horn-button, (thus-then finally grounding BOTH light-filaments [in a series-circuit] ).
If that conclusion is correct (as I expect), then you should've noticed that your headlight rather 'glowed-up' relatively slowly to a less than fully-bright intensity, (as compared to a normal headlight-circuit).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[averydad]

Thanks for hanging with me on this. As I`ve said before I have no experience with electrical circut wiring. If I can take something apart I`m pretty good at figuring how if works but I admit I`m not clear as to how this wiring scheme relates to it self and the components of the bike. I am nervous to just switch wires around for fear of causing more problems.

I switched the black and green wires. Now as soon as I push the key in the horn sounds.

As for the headlight ground, I have it straight to the HL ear and then via a green wire back to the frame.

Sorry to make you suffer such a fool but I am indeed greatful for your patience.

Rick

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Now as soon as I push the key in the horn sounds. "

____ Is that with the handlebar-switch wired-up and completely assembled & mounted, OR, still not-yet put back-together & mounted ??
If the prior, then I suspect that you have the black-wire sticking-through it's terminal-post too far, thus making contact with the horn-button without it being pressed.


" As for the headlight ground, I have it straight to the HL ear and then via a green wire back to the frame. "

____ Okay then, I now suspect that you have the related wire-connections to the headlight-bulb's socket reversed...
That bulb-socket has 4 separate input-terminals, one-pair for the green-wire & yellow-wire, and one terminal for the parking-light, plus one for the ground-connection,, and it's those last two terminal-connections that you must have reverse-connected with one-another.
So swap the ground-wire with the parking-lamp's gray-wire, (for connecting those two wires to the two opposing/outer connection-terminals on your lamp-socket).
UPDATE, I just went-back (a page) and looked at your pic showing your lamp-socket and looked-at it's wire-connections... While the green & yellow wires are certainly connected okay,, you have what looks to be a blue/gray wire and a black/gray wire connected-up to the two outer/opposed terminals of the socket, so these are the two connections which likely need to be swapped.
(When I first saw that picture, I then wondered if you actually had those two connections right,, but I HAD THEN assumed that you must, since you had gone-ahead and not bothered to ask which wire was for which terminal.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[averydad]

OK...well I do have the switch mounted as intended to the handlebar. I have left the green and and black wires switched as originally instructed. I went back and trimmed the wires to preclude the chance of making unintended contact.
I have gone and reversed the black ground wire and the wire that should be grey (I used a dark blue wire I had on hand) that attach to the headlight socket as instructed.

Now it seems almost right but still not quite.......

When I push the key straight in - nothing happens, the horn will sound if I press the button. The brake light works if I press the pedal. The tail light and headlight are off.
I presume this would be the position to run the bike in a normal way, with out lights illuminated.

When I turn the key to the right - the tail light lights - the horn will sound if the button is pressed. Also the brake light will light if the pedal is used. The headlight is not lit.
I presume this is the parking setting and if I had a festoon bulb in it`s place above the head light then this would also light.

When I turn the key to the left - Headlight and tail light light. The high / low beam switch works as it should and the brake light functions as normal. The problem is that in this position, which I figure is the normal running position for lights on riding, when the horn button is pressed only a click is heard from the horn.

I`m away at the beach with my family and will be unable to get back to the garage till Friday. I hope by then to have the rest of my bulbs arrive in the mail.
It seems like I`m so close to having this sorted although I have yet to test the ignition for spark.

Once more , as always, I am in debt for your assistance.
Rick

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I do have the switch mounted as intended to the handlebar. "

____ Okay, fine... I needed to know that it was completely installed so that I could then be reasonably sure that my concluded-reason for why your horn would sound-on as soon as the key was inserted, was probably due to extended/stray wire-strands protruding too far through the black-wire's terminal-post, thus making unintended contact with the horn-button contact (without the button being pressed).


" I went back and trimmed the wires to preclude the chance of making unintended contact. "

____ I'm glad that that simple fix has solved your unexpected horn-sounding issue, (as it would've been a mind-teaser to think of another possible reason for that).



" I have gone and reversed the black ground wire and the wire that should be grey (I used a dark blue wire I had on hand) that attach to the headlight socket as instructed. "

____ Alright then, that should've solved another of your strange circuit issues.



" When I push the key straight in - nothing happens,
I presume this would be the position to run the bike in a normal way, with out lights illuminated. "

____ That's correct,, since the only circuit which should then become activated, is the supplying of power to the ignition-circuit.


" When I turn the key to the right - the tail light lights -
The headlight is not lit.
I presume this is the parking setting and if I had a festoon bulb in it`s place above the head light then this would also light. "

____ That's correct !


" When I turn the key to the left - Headlight and tail light light. The high / low beam switch works as it should
The problem is that in this position, which I figure is the normal running position for lights on riding, when the horn button is pressed only a click is heard from the horn. "

____ That's all (pretty-much) correct...
Whenever the horn makes any noise without fully sounding-on, it's because it's not getting enough power-juice. _ This is a usual happenstance when the headlight is on and already drawing high current from the battery, thus leaving insufficient power to also power-up the horn. _ That could possibly be pretty-much solved with a larger/stronger battery.
Wiring capacity can also contribute.
Since you have a thicker than stock wire providing power TO the horn, then the length of 18-gauge wire FROM the horn to your handlebar-switch (and possibly also the horn-button's contacts themselves), possibly creates the greatest bottle-neck to current-flow, (subduing sufficient power-buildup for fully sounding the horn). _ Or also, it could be that your handlebar itself is not getting good/full contact with Ground, so grounding the bar to where the battery is grounded, may help. _ To check this possibility, you could try connecting a battery-charger to/between the battery+ & the handlebar (to learn if it lets the horn fully-sound while the lights are turned-on).
However it's my guess that the most likely bottle-neck is the contacts between the associated fuse & it's holder.
__ But what's known to work best for solving such horn-sounding/current-flow issues, is to employ a relay-circuit.
If your horn never works (with the lights also activated), even when the engine is running (thus the charging-system is then also helping the battery),
you may then wish to go with the relay-setup.

____ I'm glad that we've solved both of your incorrect wiring-connection circuits (which together caused your strange set of electrical-system abnormal-anomalies), plus your more recently created horn constantly-on issue.
__ It now seems that all your wiring is as it's supposed to be.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[averydad]

Yes, it does indeed seem my wiring is as it`s supposed to be. I have everything buttoned up and all features work as they should. I kicked it over, the ignition circut is energized and the bike fired right up !
My final question on this topic is the wiring of the high beam light. I know I don`t really need it, but I`ve gone this far to make everything right and it would be nice to have this function as it should. I have yet to purchase a light for this purpose but when I do.... which wires are used to make it work ?
I plan to post some pics of the completed Monza soon. I can`t imagine how I could have reached this point with out your help !
Cheers as always,
Rick

The next thread I start will be on the adjustment of my Delorto carb !

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I have everything buttoned up and all features work as they should. "

____ But you haven't confirmed what you've tried-out to determine that your horn can actually possibly work when you have the headlight activated !
Which of the things I suggested did you try-out, so as to be able to fully-run both loads as once ? _ Simply run the engine (& charging-system), or what ?



" My final question on this topic is the wiring of the high beam light.
which wires are used to make it work ? "

____ Since you already have both headlight-filaments wired-up, I must then assume that you actually rather mean the high-beam indicator-light...
__ Since you employ a non-stock handlebar-switch (with non-designated Hi/Lo positions), you'll then have to determine yourself which HL.socket-terminal to connect the indicator's wire to,, either the socket-terminal for the Green-wire, or for the Yellow-wire.
When you've made the correct connection-choice, then your indicator-light should only light-up just when you have the HL.high-beam activated.

When I push the key straight into the socket - The tail lamp lights up.
When I push the horn button I hear a click from the horn and the headlight bulb lights ! It stays lit as long as I hold the horn button.

____ We can now be positively-certain of the reason for why you had ended-up with such very strange electrical-workings ! ...
Those peculiar circuits were caused by TWO separare & combined MISS-connected wiring-connections which you had mistakenly made. ...
__ First,, you had the horn's (black)- ground-wire connected to the Hi/Lo-switch (instead of the horn-button's post), thus allowing battery-power (from the key-switch) to pass-through the horn & up to the lighting-circuit, which thus-then allowed the tail-light to light-up ! _ (The reason the headlight did not also light-up, is cuz you did-not have the headlight grounded.)
__ Second,, you had the HL.socket's parking-light & ground-wire terminals swap-connected with each-other, which kept the headlight from being able to have a completed ground-circuit, (until the horn-button was activated).
Since you had one of the headlight filaments connected to the horn-button connection, pressing the horn-button THEN allowed one of the two light-filaments to become grounded, and since the other light-filament was miss-circuited to the battery (through the horn), the (ungrounded) common ground-connection between the two headlight-filaments allowed for a triple-load series-circuit -(through the horn & both light-filaments), thus lighting both filaments & making the horn "click" ! _ (As battery-power would then pass-through the horn and up-to & through the (directly-connected) headlight-filament and next through the other filament and up-to & through the horn-button's contacts to ground.)
Since all three loads were having to split-up the available 6-volts, the horn was thus-then unable to fully-sound, and since the horn's internal-wiring is more like a short-circuit than the light-filaments are, the light-filaments were then probably sharing MOST of the voltage and leaving well less than 2-volts for (merely clicking) the horn.
And since the pair of light-filaments were then likely only getting about 2.5-volts each, their combined light-output then should've been quite notably less than when either filament alone is NORMALLY lite (with 6-volts all to itself) !
__ Holding-down the horn-button (with those two miss-circuits you had), may have been hard on the horn's internals, cuz it then had to pass the current for both tail AND head lights, without being able to 'buzz' (& sound).
At least that series headlight-circuit (which was in parallel with the tail-light), didn't pass too awfully much more current than the tail-light was already passing (before the horn-button was activated).


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[averydad]

Hello once again. Yes, as usual, you are correct about my prior two wiring mistakes. Once I switched the black and green wires in the handle bar switch, and also reversed the black and grey (dk. blue)
wires at the headlight ....all is OK except for the headlight on and horn sounding issue.

I placed the battery on a Tender over night and then rolled it out of the garage. Upon trying the lights on / horn situation again, the horn sounded three out of five times. The other times if only clicked.
I figure the voltage must be right on the brink of being sufficient to operate both.
When the bike was started the horn sounded with the lights on the two or three times I tried it. However, I`m having another issue with my carb settings and was unable to run the engine for more than a minute or two. Therefore I`ll have to wait to be certain that all will work as intended when I actually ride the bike.
I`m having a friend come over Tuesday who is more experienced with the Delorto carb. With his help I`m hopefull I can get on the road.

If I still have a problem perhaps I`ll start a new thread about horn and lights on issue. You had mentioned a relay....I may need to look into this option down the road.

My last question was indeed about the high beam WARNING light. I think I can figure this out and get it hooked up once I buy a suitable light socket.

Thanks much,
Rick

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" all is OK except for the headlight on and horn sounding issue. "

____ The basic-assumption for not being able to run two high-loads (such as your horn when the headlight is turned-on), would preponderantly be that your battery happens to be weak. _ (As those two loads together are almost like a short-circuit for batteries with low stored-charge, whereas strong batteries can better handle the high current-drain without their voltage dropping-down too low.)
However there could be other possible faults to explain the lack of power to fully-run more than one such high current-demand loads at once...
For instance it could be that at-least one the contact surface-areas between the battery's terminal-posts & the terminals of the connected wire-leads, is not good & clean enough to fully pass sufficient current for fully powering-up BOTH loads at once, (even when the battery still happens to have stored enough reserve charge to maintain it's rated voltage).
Those main-type connections to the battery are the most suspect, but ALL connections within any (high-load) circuit COULD possibly be at some-amount of fault.
__ To help determine whether it's a poor-connection or a weak-battery (which is most at fault for not fully powering those two high-loads), you could try connecting a (4-amp or higher) 6-volt battery-charger directly to the terminal-posts of your installed battery, and then see if those two loads fully power-up OR remain the same (with the horn not sounding).
If there's then a notable improvement, you can then realize that your battery was too weak,, but if you don't get any notable change, then you can assume that there's a poor connection somewhere in the circuit between the battery & horn.
I should point-out that this test would not be 'fair' if the clamps from the charger-unit make any contact with the wire-terminals on the battery, therefore the clamps should only make contact with just the battery-posts themselves/alone.
Also (to be fair with such a test), the chosen battery-charger unit should-not offer a voltage that's any higher than that of the battery, (as most common so-called "6 volt" charger-units actually produce considerably higher voltage [nearer to 8.5v] ) ! _ Cuz any resulted raise in system-voltage would certainly tilt the result-outcome of the test.
So I guess if you happen to have another 6-volt battery (who's voltage doesn't happen to be higher than your installed battery), it would then be better to jump-wire that battery (to the installed battery), instead of trying a battery-charger, for the same suggested test.


" I placed the battery on a Tender over night
Upon trying the lights on / horn situation again, the horn sounded three out of five times. The other times if only clicked.
I figure the voltage must be right on the brink of being sufficient to operate both. "

____ Yes, that would indeed seem to be the case.
So-then either your battery is too small to store enough charge to maintain it's voltage, or in turn, your particular horn happens to consume too much of the battery's stored-juice (thus-then drawing too much current for the battery to be able to maintain it's rated-voltage [and therefore also then not provide sufficient voltage to operate your horn] ).


" When the bike was started the horn sounded with the lights on the two or three times I tried it. "

____ That's good, as that then indicates that your charging-system is backing-up your battery with (at least) SUFFICIENT power-juice.
But just as with a common battery-charger unit, we may assume that that results was likely due to an increase of system-VOLTAGE, (rather than merely additional available amperage-current).
__ Ya-see, if we could make more/sufficient amperage available (from your battery-source) without also increasing system-voltage, THEN we could determine for-sure whether your dual high-load issue was due to a weak battery OR a poor circuit-connection to the horn. _ Cuz if both loads then fully power-up, (without any raised system-voltage*), then we could KNOW that the fault of your issue is actually due to a weak battery, rather than a poor-connection. _ (*Since a higher system-voltage would tend to overcome any poor connection.)
So on the other-hand,, if your issue still remained, then we would KNOW you have a poor connection (somewhere) to your horn.



" If I still have a problem perhaps I`ll start a new thread about horn and lights on issue. You had mentioned a relay....I may need to look into this option down the road. "

____ Well if your issue is due to a weak battery, then a relay will not help (cuz your system-voltage will still drop-down too low when trying to fully power-up both loads at once) !
However, if your issue is rather due to a poor circuit-connection (somewhere within your horn-circuit), THEN a horn-relay setup will likely solve your horn-sounding issue.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob