Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators

[grapes]

Dew cat Tee Bob:

I am looking into using an original black box regulator, stripping out all the guts, then putting the two bridge block system,
inside then connect to stock female reg connectors, then just plug in the two yellow wires, battery,ground wire, the wire to the headlite switch, and the last one to key for ign, I might have a bug or two to work out,but it would be a clean stock looking installation. I hate patched up looking wiring, do you see any problems I've overlooked? Capt Paul

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I am looking into using an original black box regulator, stripping out all the guts, then putting the two bridge block system, "

____ When I did my first dual-charging system on a 4-speed/older-type Monza, I kept that heavy stock rect.reg-box wired-up as stock and simply spliced-in (to the two yellow alt.wire-leads), my own extra pair of added power-diodes, (kept external of the stock-box & pressed into their very-own alloy-metal mounting-bar), which was a nice enough set-up ! _ But for my Sebring, I did gut-out the stock innards of it's stock black-box, and fit within it a pair of 6-amp full-wave bridge-rectifiers. _ I wired-up the modified-box as stockly as possible so that it's Red-terminal supplied the #1-POS.output for the key-switch/battery wire-connection, it's Grey-terminal supplied the #2-POS.output for the light-switching wire-connection, and it's Brown-terminal supplied the #1-NEG.output for my (positively-grounded) power-capacitors, while it's Green-terminal supplied the #2-NEG.output for the (positively-grounded) 6-volt battery.


" inside then connect to stock female reg connectors, then just plug in the two yellow wires, battery,ground wire, the wire to the headlite switch, and the last one to key for ign,
do you see any problems I've overlooked? "

____ Well it's hard-saying with that somewhat vague-description and no wiring-scheme to look-over, but I can point-out at least, that there should no longer be any need for the original Green-wire from your modified-box, to Ground.
__ At this point I suggest that you consider that which I've done, and then let me know exactly what your updated wire-scheme is intened to become.


Fun-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Well it seems that since I've been referring to "Brit-bike battery-eliminators" as often as I have been so far, that I finally ought to make some points about them ...
__ First, the only reason that makes such a battery-eliminator unit a 'Brit-bike' type, is the fact that it's particularly intended for use with 'Positive-Ground' type electrical-systems. _ (Although the simplest unit versions are still possibly usable for NEG.ground systems as well.)
__ The simplest version is merely just a high-volume capacitor rated to store about 25,000-microfarads & handle up to 100-volts -(only that high so as to be able to withstand unregulated successive voltage-peaks).
Here's a link to a typical example of such.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... vi-content
__ Other versions of Brit-bike battery-eliminator units may contain larger capacity capacitors rated up to 50,000-microfarads & about 10 or 20 volts handling, and also connected in parallel with a 7 or 14-volt Zener-diode circuit (to prevent otherwise destructive pulsing-DC voltage-peaking).
The best battery-eliminator units include two or three capacitors with varying time-constant circuits, so as to not only store-up DC power-juice but also further smooth-out the otherwise Pulsating-DC into a smoother steady DC-level, (with similar effect to the desired more-level out-put of 2 or 3 phase alt.systems).
Here's a link to a page of various battery-eliminators, (of which only a few are of any interest to DUCATI-owners).....
http://www.sportslinkup.com/shop/0-Batt ... tor-1.html

____ The main complaint that riders have had with the use of battery-eliminators has been the fact that not only do the lights notably dim at low-revs, but the engine will then run poorly, if not also out-rightly die at a stop (when the brake-light is on as well) !
__ The beauty of my suggested dual-charging system is that the dependent ignition-system is not sharing it's supply of power-juice with any other load ! _ And thus those main complaints are avoided.

____ I've next added a diagram-scheme for planing a good home-constructable bat.elim-circuit, which is more suitable for our particular job (here within this thread), than most any other available/ready-made B.E-unit.
__ Most of the reasonably-priced B.E-units have only one capacitor of which it's capacity-size is a compromise ! ...
If the cap's capacity is too small, then it cannot help-out very much and will not be capable of storing much of the power-juice that's been made available by the alternator.
While with the other extreme, if the cap's capacity is too large,, then while kicking-over the motor, it's hunger for electron-juice will rob much juice from the ignition-circuit until that large-capacitor gets charged-up enough to then allow sufficient power-juice to divert towards powering the ignition,, thus ya may have to do some excessive kicking before the engine will then be allowed to start-up.
__ My own B.E.circuits (which I doubt anyone else has ever thought of building), addresses this above concern. ...
The below diagram depicts one of the yellow alt.wire-leads double-connected to the AC-inputs of a (convenient to use) rect.block, with it's NEG.output connected to my suggested B.E.circuit.
It uses a condenser, (at Left-side, within red-outline), with a suggested value/rating between: 500 & 3000 microfarads for the older 4-pole alternator, or 800 to 5000 microfarads for the 6-pole alt, with 50 to 100 volts peak-handling;
a Zener-diode, rated 5.6 to 7 volts & at least 2-amp handling;
and an electrolytic-capacitor (at Right-side of red-box), with a suggested value/rating of 20,000 to 100,000 microfarads & 50 to 100 volts handling.
__ This circuit allows the condenser to much more quickly charge-up to a voltage high enough to help power-up the ignition-circuit during kick-starting, as once that relatively easy task has reached the Zener-voltage, any excess power-juice will then bleed-over (through the Zener-diode) into the electro.cap, thus saving more power-juice (created by the alternator) without also stealing most of the juice needed for producing the first spark !
And when-ever the condenser's power-juice falls below 5.6-volts, the main-storage cap's stored juice will then be dumped back out to help replenish it's shortage (of electron-juice), so as to help keep it's voltage above 5-volts, (just as a B.E-unit's purpose is wishfully meant to do!).
____ Another advantage of my B.E.circuit is, unlike normal battery-powered ign.systems which lose effectiveness at making ign.sparks as the revs build-up to top-RPM,, the same ignition-systems can instead get stronger as the revs climb, since the stored power-juice then develops higher voltages than a battery can store ! _ (So a premium ign.coil may be in order.) _ And keep in mind that battery-type ign.coils are simply 'rated' at "6" or "12" volts, and that's not really a big concern. - (As for one thing, some "12volt" coils can actually draw more current than some "6volt" coils do!)
So instead of stating the rated voltage of an ignition-coil, it would be much more useful (for comparing ign.coils), if they instead stated it's primary-coil's impedance & intended-wattage consumption, as well as it's turns-ratio.
If whatever ign.coil ya use gets hot after 10-minutes of running, then a ballast-resistor -(an inline component which increases it's resistance as it heats-up), ought to be wired-up in series with the ign.coil.


Done-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ I just figured that since I took so long to get back to finishing-up my above/previous post, that I ought to go-ahead & bring this thread back to the top, so as to alert anyone interested, (who may have forgotten that I was supposed to finish-up that post), that it's now completed (as had been intended).

____ The POS.ground Battery-Eliminator circuit suggested in the above posting was not the first B.E.circuit which I came-up with on my own...
When I first learned a fair amount about electrical-circuits & their various parts (in 1965), and that many Brit-bikers were using battery-eliminators -(mostly just electro.caps) to get rid of battery-issues - (keep in mind that cycle-batteries were a real-pain before the '70s when batteries then became much better [from Japan at least]!),
I then wanted to do the same as well. _ So I replaced the battery in my otherwise stock 4-speed Monza (with 4-pole alt), with the largest-value capacitor that I could get my hands on, (which I believe was 18K-microfarads).
The results were dim lights & engine prone to stalling, at low revs (under 3000-RPM), and over-powered 6v-lights at high revs (above 6000-RPM), despite the stock so-called "6volt regulator" ! - (A certain falsehood!)
__ I next got to read a cycle-mag which had a fairly good article on the subject of battery elimination, which then excited me into buying a used pre-manufactured Battery-Eliminator (which had been on a used 650-BSA that a friend bought). _ It had some kind of Zener-diode regulator and a capacitor (with I think 22K-microfarads storage).
Naturally thinking that 'more-is-better', I also kept my own electro.cap wired into my (otherwise stock) battery-less DC-system along-with that used B.E-unit, as well. - (The B.E-unit was not the [cheaper]- type made specifically for use just on Brit-bikes, and mounted with rubber-straps hung from the mounts for the stock black-box [under the seat], while my own electro.cap was fitted within the headlamp-shell.)
That's when I found-out that kick-starting became an unexpected situation, as I then learned that I most often had to first kick-over the engine a couple times with key left turned-off, and also with hopes that the ign.points would always happen to become stopped while in their open position, (in order to prevent premature discharging of the then stored juice, while getting ready to complete an actual start-up kicking), for when the key-switch was to be finally turned-on,, before then getting a good kick-through for a successful starting, (so long as all else was also all-ready for a good starting, of course).
__ Until I installed a small volt-meter (so I'd be able to tell when the points were open or not), I had turned to push&bump starting whenever I was in a hurry to get started, and even then, the motor had to turn-over further than normal before the (fortunately low-compression) engine would fire-up...
What I didn't realize back-at-the-time, was that the combined capacity of both (uncharged & directly-wired) capacitors was momentarily robbing the ignition-circuit of power (until they both were sufficiently charged), thus causing wasted kick-starting time (during cold-engine starting).
__ However otherwise my system was quite fine once started and on-my-way (either with lights off,, or on, with a high-idling engine).
But when fall-darkness came later in the riding-season, I then chose to go-back to using a battery.
And about that time, I found that my stock black-box rect.reg-unit had a burnt-up wire-wound resistor within, and that's when I first tried to understand how the unit worked and then realized that it apparently didn't make any use of the non-positive halves of the alternator's AC power-juice. _ And that's when it dawned on me that I could possibly have an easy way to cure my dim-lights & weak-spark (at low-RPM without battery)- issue. _ And that's when I wired-up for my dual-charging system, and also came-up with my own B.E.circuit (to go with it),, for a combined two-pronged poke at my (otherwise stock) low-power 4-pole alt.charging-system.
____ I've already covered (elsewhere within this thread) the part about obtaining the otherwise unused (negative with respect to ground) power-juice, and so now I'll tell about the first B.E.circuit which I then came-up with...

____ The diagram below shows the components (within the red outline), which I used to make-up my (first) self-made battery-eliminator circuit...
It shows NEG.juice supplied to a condenser & two diodes... The relatively small condenser-capacity quickly charges-up (with 4 NEGative power-pulses per Otto-cycle), while the lower diode passes negative-juice through to a (higher-value)- wire-wound resistor which in turn allows SLOWed charging of the relatively large capacitor-capacity.
__ After the capacitor has had (a little) time to charge-up, then whenever the condenser's voltage falls more than half a volt below that of the capacitor, the upper (lower-value)- wire-wound resistor & diode will then allow quick discharging of the capacitor,, so as to help keep the condenser fully charged, to smooth-out the otherwise Pulsating-DC, (which thus helps keep the DC ignition-circuit properly satisfied).
__ The intention of this circuit is to keep the (more important) condenser charged-up without robbing the ignition-circuit of it's needed power-juice during initial engine start-up, while also being able to store-up greater amounts of alternator-supplied power-juice within the larger-capacity electro.cap.
This slow/in & fast/out (rates of current-juice), type of set-up,, allows for having your cake & eating it too, so-to-speak. _ That's due to the fact that the lower resistor (which should be 30 to 60 ohms, and need not be a "wire-wound" type), will not allow the large-capacitor to ever (greatly) compete with the ignition-circuit for power-juice,, yet the upper resistor (which ought to be a wire-wound/inductor-type & 4 to 8 ohms), will allow sufficiently fast charging of the condenser (so as to better-help at keeping the DC power-level to the ign.coil-circuit, at least adequate). - (The ignition-circuit actually only requires slightly more power-juice than that of 1 (of the 4) alt.power-pulse, thus (most of) the 3 extra power-pulses are free for charging the capacitor.)
Therefore in this case, the "larger-is-better" train-of-thought actually does now indeed apply (for the electro.cap's value-size) ! _ So a capacitor-capacity of 30,000 to 100k microfarads can be taken advantage of without the disadvantage of needing to first be charged-up, during kick-starting.
One main advantage is that an unintentional dumped clutch (or whatever the like) at an intersection, will still allow for a (quick) restarting, just as if ya still had a fairly -(not fully) charged-battery hooked-up (to your ignition-system)! - (Does anyone else recall the days back when ya could likely see some poor Brit-bike rider [who's bike employed a common/std.type B.E-unit], trying to kick-start his motor back to life at an intersection ? )
And this way, the condenser need be only 500 to 3k microfarads in value-size.

____ I actually don't recommend this particular set-up/scheme, as I myself prefer to use a volt-meter & manual-switch -(in place of my old/original twin-diode/resistor circuit). _ I just included it so as to show what I had originally started-out with (for my very-own B.E.circuit).
Just in case interested anyhow, those two diodes need be no more than 2-amp & 50-PIV, (while the 'power-diode' outside/at left, ought to be 6 to 10-amp & 100-PIV.)


Done-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

It's too bad that you didn't take either a voltage or current reading from that 60-watt light, so that we could have then figured the wattage being produced at that RPM.

That's the beauty of a test fixture, ease of swapping hardware.

____ Bill, I've been meaning to ask about this for a long time (but didn't want to bring it up while you were still well into all the 6-pole stator-testing...
Have you ever done any testing of the stock 4-pole stator which was on your 450R/T ?
__ Did you ever find a 12-pole rotor that could fit/work with it ?

____ So anyhow, what's been your latest thoughts on exactly what you'll likely end-up using for an alternator on your 450-project ?


Curious-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

____ Bill, I've been meaning to ask about this for a long time (but didn't want to bring it up while you were still well into all the 6-pole stator-testing...
Have you ever done any testing of the stock 4-pole stator which was on your 450R/T ?

Yes but that was a while ago and I don't recall the specific numbers, I also set up a plate with one coil that I radius-ed to better fit the larger 6pole stator and was disappointed in the low rpm voltage output so didn't pursue it further. In light of the more recent findings with the battery added I guess the outcome could now be different.

__ Did you ever find a 12-pole rotor that could fit/work with it ?

The spacing of the magnets on the 12 pole stators I have wasn't right for those particular coils and the combination produced very low output.

____ So anyhow, what's been your latest thoughts on exactly what you'll likely end-up using for an alternator on your 450-project ?

Right now there's a 12 pole single phase Denso alt in the (not yet fully buttoned up) motor, I'm tempted to pull it back out for some comparison testing with the more recent setup. What becomes the permanent setup may depend on whether or not I feel like the testing on the stock 6 pole is complete when I need to get the motor finished, obviously the bench testing ends if it's in the 450. I'm getting close to the point of being able to ride it (been threatening to do a dedicated thread on that project for the past year), so we'll just have to wait and see where my priorities fall...

Bill

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I also set up a plate with one coil that I radius-ed to better fit the larger 6pole stator "

____ That reminds me, I believe I recall that you were considering matching-up THREE of those single-type core-coils, (spaced 120-degrees, instead the stock 180-degrees), to work within a std.6-pole alt.rotor.(?)
That's quite an interesting project-conception, providing that all 6 of the pole-ends (of the three independent cores), can be properly minimally space-gaped from the rotor's 6 poles.
__ Do you have any pictures showing your modified-core setting next to or within the 6-pole rotor ?


" and was disappointed in the low rpm voltage output so didn't pursue it further. "

____ The "voltage output" ? _ What was the load you used ? _ (Hopefully not a merely glowing H4-filament.)
A check of it's 'power-output' would've been more telling.


" In light of the more recent findings with the battery added I guess the outcome could now be different. "

____ Different, yes,, but better overall, probably not.
__ Your pair of high-value capacitors however, may indeed make an overall positive difference.
One-thing/aspect which wouldn't be involved, is neither the increased or negative working-impedance involved with any intertwined stator-windings.


" The spacing of the magnets on the 12 pole stators I have wasn't right for those particular coils and the combination produced very low output. "

____ I'm unsure of what your particular testing setup was but, I assume that while your stock 4-pole (twin/independent core type) alt.stator was still as original, the only 12-pole rotor you had to test with it, included 'spacing' which was too large to pass it's magnets closely enough to the 4-pole stator-core's pole-ends, to obtain sufficient induction-action.
Because the 'spacing' BETWEEN each of the 12 magnets, should not have mattered (unless the area of each magnet is so small [compared to stator-core's pole-ends], that more than just one magnet's area covers/effects the area of a pole-end at once [?]).
I asked only about a '12' pole rotor because, a 20-pole, (if such existed), no-doubt would have such an overlap issue,, (and 16 & 8 pole rotors wouldn't work because the opposite pole-ends of each core must be exposed to opposite N/S poles from the rotor).
If a 12-pole rotor (with equal magnetic-flux strength as that of the stock 4-pole rotor), of equal inside-diameter (as the stock rotor has), could be fitted over the stock 4-pole stator, then you could expect total power-output to be triple that of stock, (thus obtaining at 2k-RPM, the same amount of power which the stock-alternator produces at 6k-RPM).


" Right now there's a 12 pole single phase Denso alt in the motor, "

____ Got a picture of that we can see ?
How much trouble was it to fit to your Duke-motor ?


" I'm tempted to pull it back out for some comparison testing with the more recent setup. "

____ That would indeed be interesting to do, (if not too much work).
However I doubt that the 12-pole Denso-alt wouldn't have an obvious power-advantage over the much-modified 6-pole alt.stator. _ (Assuming you're still looking to obtain MEGA extra power.)


" What becomes the permanent setup may depend on whether or not I feel like the testing on the stock 6 pole is complete when I need to get the motor finished, "

____ The much-modified 6-pole Ducati alt.stator now makes more power than you really need, (unless you intend to often let your 450 idle ALL-day with the lights left on).
I think you've well covered the testing of the three stator-sections in parallel, so only thing left is to try that 6-coil stator with just two stator-windings (instead of the three), in parallel.
__ I really think that you ought to have another/separate Duke-project ready to start, as soon as your 450 is going !


" obviously the bench testing ends if it's in the 450. "

____ Yes it seems that 'BENCH' testing that 12-pole alt may not occur but, you could still do some testing of it (out in the real-world). _ Just need a volt-meter and an ammeter hooked-up.
Got a tach on your 450 ?


" I'm getting close to the point of being able to ride it "

____ That's just fine then ! _ Don't let yourself get set back by undoing what you've already got done. _ Any testing you've already done with the 12-pole alt, will have to do for the time being,, so that you can get your 450 on the road for the season.


" (been threatening to do a dedicated thread on that project for the past year), "

____ Yes, that would've been quite nice to have kept logged-up on here, all-along !
But hopefully you can still get us caught-up on it all, on any rainy-days coming-up.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

" I also set up a plate with one coil that I radius-ed to better fit the larger 6pole stator "

____ That reminds me, I believe I recall that you were considering matching-up THREE of those single-type core-coils, (spaced 120-degrees, instead the stock 180-degrees), to work within a std.6-pole alt.rotor.(?)
That's quite an interesting project-conception, providing that all 6 of the pole-ends (of the three independent cores), can be properly minimally space-gaped from the rotor's 6 poles.
__ Do you have any pictures showing your modified-core setting next to or within the 6-pole rotor ?

I would need to permanently modify the coil cores to conform to the radius of the larger dia 6 or 12 pole rotors and don't want to ruin them for the original setup if I'm not even going to end up using them in the modified form.
I had picked up a spare coil and altered it to try but as I stated was unimpressed with the results so didn't pursue it any further. No pics, I'll click one if I can remember next time I have the rotor off.

" and was disappointed in the low rpm voltage output so didn't pursue it further. "

____ The "voltage output" ? _ What was the load you used ? _ (Hopefully not a merely glowing H4-filament.)
A check of it's 'power-output' would've been more telling.

Sorry, don't recall....

" The spacing of the magnets on the 12 pole stators I have wasn't right for those particular coils and the combination produced very low output. "

____ I'm unsure of what your particular testing setup was but, I assume that while your stock 4-pole (twin/independent core type) alt.stator was still as original, the only 12-pole rotor you had to test with it, included 'spacing' which was too large to pass it's magnets closely enough to the 4-pole stator-core's pole-ends, to obtain sufficient induction-action.).

No, I made a mtg plate for just one coil that provided a sufficiently close gap, what I mean by 'spacing' is that when a north magnet is on one end of the coil core, a north is also partially on the other end at the same time. BTW, I meant 12 pole rotor, not stator but evidently you got that...

" Right now there's a 12 pole single phase Denso alt in the motor, "

____ Got a picture of that we can see ?
How much trouble was it to fit to your Duke-motor ?

There are some pictures already in this very thread, 3rd page, 6 or seven posts down (and also info about fitment), I believe this is where I initially reported on my first alternator work and was going to eventually create a dedicated thread but never got the data organized enough...

" I'm tempted to pull it back out for some comparison testing with the more recent setup. "

____ That would indeed be interesting to do, (if not too much work).
However I doubt that the 12-pole Denso-alt wouldn't have an obvious power-advantage over the much-modified 6-pole alt.stator. _ (Assuming you're still looking to obtain MEGA extra power.)

I have working setups all the way up to (a rated) 350 watts, if I wanted to go there. I still have to ask you some specifics about down rating them with the use of power diodes...

I think you've well covered the testing of the three stator-sections in parallel, so only thing left is to try that 6-coil stator with just two stator-windings (instead of the three), in parallel.

Soon...

__ I really think that you ought to have another/separate Duke-project ready to start, as soon as your 450 is going !

If I had one, I would. In addition to my current build I still have a reasonably complete stock 450 R/T rolling chassis, If I can find another w-c motor that's a possibility though not anywhere near my top choice for another single. Like probably everyone here who doesn't already have one, a mach1 type project would be very high on my wish list, wouldn't need to be a proper one, just similar. Not likely to happen though, I have a pretty big queue of other bikes (and cars) sitting here waiting their turn for a good going over...

" obviously the bench testing ends if it's in the 450. "

____ Yes it seems that 'BENCH' testing that 12-pole alt may not occur but, you could still do some testing of it (out in the real-world). _ Just need a volt-meter and an ammeter hooked-up.

Actually I meant the bench testing of the stock alt if I were to use that in the motor... I'm not at all concerned about lack of power output on the 12 pole, just about if it's adding excessive heat to the motor...

Got a tach on your 450 ?

I plan on adding a tach, have an electronic one from a Guzzi that I'd like to use but I'm not sure how to hook it up and whether it will read right on a single.

" (been threatening to do a dedicated thread on that project for the past year), "

____ Yes, that would've been quite nice to have kept logged-up on here, all-along !
But hopefully you can still get us caught-up on it all, on any rainy-days coming-up.

I've been taking pics and writing it up for well over a year, just never got organized to 'publish' and wasn't sure if I was ready to get it picked apart publicly and to spend the time answering questions. It's been through countless major design revisions and I wasn't up for trying to explain why on all the changes. Kept intending to unveil it when a final concept started to gel but the changes just continued on and on. Feel like I've built 5 bikes already on this one project. I think I'm about there though, I'm worn down enough by it to just say, ok this is it, for better or worse...


Bill

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I would need to permanently modify the coil cores to conform to the radius of the larger dia 6 or 12 pole rotors "

____ I suppose it would indeed be best if the core-pole's radius was increased to match that of the larger 6-pole rotor.
However with a 12-pole rotor, the original smaller-radius might be useful (enough as is) to help the core-poles from sensing otherwise possible overlapping N & S magnetic-fields.

I assume that while your stock 4-pole (twin/independent core type) alt.stator was still as original, the only 12-pole rotor you had to test with it, included 'spacing' which was too large to pass it's magnets closely enough to the 4-pole stator-core's pole-ends, to obtain sufficient induction-action.).

" No, I made a mtg plate for just one coil that provided a sufficiently close gap, what I mean by 'spacing' is that when a north magnet is on one end of the coil core, a north is also partially on the other end at the same time. "

____ Okay, I had assumed that you had tested with a completely stock 4-pole stator, but actually your related testing was with just a single core-coil (within a 12-pole rotor which was too large in radius!).


" I have working setups all the way up to (a rated) 350 watts, if I wanted to go there. I still have to ask you some specifics about down rating them with the use of power diodes... "

____ The idea is that with such a diode, you could then prevent half of the complete AC-cycle from being usable, (thus obtain just a 50% duty-cycle).


" I plan on adding a tach, have an electronic one from a Guzzi that I'd like to use but I'm not sure how to hook it up and whether it will read right on a single. "

____ I believe most Guzzi-tachs are triggered by only one cylinder, so it ought to work for you (unless perhaps it's from a model which employed a distributor).


Onward-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ The quoted-post below by Joe, was partially copied to here from another thread. - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=388&p=4695#p4691

I am also building (at the same current time) another duke for myself, it is however a n/c 250 Mark III, built out of "spares" that my dad also had in the aforementioned "shed" for the past 35 years, along with a frame sourced on ebay, and various other pieces. I had no charging system parts, so I purchased a 60w n/c alt. setup on ebay. I have read the posts by yourself, moto-mike, and wcorey in "6 or 12volt" "methods to increase output from n-c twin wirelead alternators" etc... There are so many options covered I dont know what to do yet honestly, one thing i dont believe was mentioned though is this...(my real question) I have no early "black box" I do however have 3 later w/c reg/rec assemblies (not sure of part number, but all 3 where removed from the aforementioned w/c scr, 350 desmo, and a third w/c scrambler which is long gone from my dad's "stash") Can I use my 60w n/c Alt. wired exactly as I intend on wiring the 450 scr per your wiring scheme depicted in the earlier post (asssuming of course I un-solder and combine the 2 ground leads then use 3 conductors to exit the engine at the gland nut) 2 yellow, 1 red respectively... Would this be the way to go ( I realize it will not offer the same output as with the w/c 70w alternator) BUT...since A: I already have a spare w/c reg/rec B: the bridge/rec. being used are inexpensive, and C: sourcing an early n/c "black box" is difficult, and most I see look horribly abused, not to mention this "third duke" im speaking of (the n/c 250) will not be "correct" no matter what I do, because of lack of orig. parts, frame was modified by previous owner, etc... I had all but made up my mind to use the system you depicted in the other thread on increasing output on twin lead alternators (and I still may do just that) but I wanted to know your opinion on which system might be better suited to my n/c 250.
In other words, given the parts I have to work with, and given the facts the alt. is removed from engine already, I am not concerned with the wiring "looking original" and I am also not concerned with the "complexity" of the system (which I know you have pointed out others might be, in the previous post covering the use of 2 bridge recs, along with combining/isolationg the grounds, and using no factory voltage regualtor, but using a toggle switch between one of the pdc outputs of one of the recs, and the battery positive terminal) What setup would you recommend ?

One other dumb question relating to that system which im sure you covered, but I have been doing so much reading im starting to confuse myself... by wiring the twin lead alt exactly as described, and grounding both recs to the battery/frame... that is intended to be a 12v system correct ? and if so, what a.h.rating 12v battery would you recommend ? what would happen if someone wired it exactly as described but did not removed/combine/isolate the grounds at the alt. ? would it be 6 volt or would it simply be "wrong" not really on topic i know, but I am just curious... ANY info/suggestions/input/corrections, etc...would be greatly appreciated...
Any further info you require from me... pics, part numbers, application related info, etc...I will surely submit if/when you request it. Thanks in advance, Joe

Side notes... I also have a 28w early n/c scr charging system to use, however I dont wish to do so...
I do intend to run a battery on the n/c 250
I want to run a higher output headlamp, a horn, a tailight, standard points (battery ignition), and nothing else.
I am not fully commited to either 6v or 12v.

" I had no charging system parts, so I purchased a 60w n/c alt. setup on ebay. I have read the posts by yourself, moto-mike, and wcorey in "6 or 12volt" "methods to increase output from n-c twin wirelead alternators" etc... There are so many options covered I dont know what to do yet honestly, "

____ Yes there are a number of options already given but, that's only about 1/3rd of what I know of !
I myself like/prefer logically complex designs, while others prefer more simplistic girly/Jap.bike type designs. _ In any case, I can & will guide you through to that of your best liking. _ (And don't be concerned about possibly preferring to change your goal half-way through the process, as others may still care to know of whatever alternatives.)


" one thing i dont believe was mentioned though is this...(my real question) I have no early "black box" I do however have 3 later w/c reg/rec assemblies (all 3 were removed from the aforementioned w/c scr, 350 desmo, and a third w/c scrambler) Can I use my 60w n/c Alt. wired exactly as I intend on wiring the 450 scr per your wiring scheme depicted in the earlier post (asssuming of course I un-solder and combine the 2 ground leads then use 3 conductors to exit the engine at the gland nut) 2 yellow, 1 red respectively... "

____ It seems that you already realize all you need to do fairly well enough ! _ Although it's of course always good to take this added step of making double-sure, before going-ahead with any plans.
__ The original black-box which was intended to work with the '60-watt' (6-pole 4 core-coil) alternator which you acquired is indeed not required !
And if your alternator was mounted as stock within your motor, I'd then advise on how to use a pair of power-diodes (or a rectifier-block) to come-up with a charging-system that could easily run a 45-watt headlight (and a high-power light at higher speeds as well) !
But since you have such an alternator already in-hand, it would be BEST to replace the stock twin wire-lead cable with an alt.cable which has FOUR wire-leads within. _ But if you find it easier to use a cable with only three wire-leads, then that will do well enough, as that will still allow for most wiring-plans including conversion to the WideCase-method ! ...
So yes, your particular notion for such a scheme-plan (as you inquired of), would of course work well, (and exactly such has already been done before and tried-out with both 6v & 12v battery systems) !


" Would this be the way to go "

____ Such a scheme-plan IS the way-to-go providing it's what YOU like. _ (I-myself prefer a more complicated manually-controlled system.)
__ There's nothing wrong with your conceived charging-system circuit choice, (providing you indeed have a GOOD w-c type regulator-box). _ Many w-c R.R-units (like you have spares of,) have gone-bad simply due to, (for some reason or another) being run when the battery then becomes disconnected. _ The stock w-c R.R-box can't survive such high system-voltage abuse for very long (before having it's touchy internals overpowered & rendered nonfunctional).


" I had all but made up my mind to use the system you depicted in the other thread on increasing output on twin lead alternators (and I still may do just that) but I wanted to know your opinion on which system might be better suited to my n/c 250. "

____ Which suggested n-c charging-system are you referring to exactly ? - (The one which makes use of the otherwise ignored negative half-cycles ?)


" I am not concerned with the wiring "looking original" and I am also not concerned with the "complexity" of the system (the use of 2 bridge recs, along with combining/isolationg the grounds, and using no factory voltage regualtor, but using a toggle switch between one of the pdc outputs of one of the recs, and the battery positive terminal) What setup would you recommend ? "

____ Well I-myself have always preferred to not rely on a regulator and instead run with a 'balanced' system, (as many 'regulators' do undesirable things with the alt.power they attempt to control).
With a fairly 'balanced-system', the battery alone can then fairly maintain system-voltage (without help from a v.regulator),
but the charging power-output has to be adjusted (as manually possible) so as to stay roughly in balance with the system-load that's being ran. _ So when only the ign.system and battery are consuming power, then only minimal power is required from the alternator. _ So therefore half-wave rectification of only one of the two alternator-circuits is then needed.
However when the lights are also consuming power-juice from the battery, then to keep it charged, both alternator-circuits then need to be tapped-into ! _ And that can be done with a manual-switch ! - (Such a power-switch is incorporated into/with the light-switch, of many Jap.bikes !)
Such additional switching is even useful for charging-systems which employ regulators ! _ As the regulator then has an easier time keeping system-voltage down, nearer to a proper level (such as no higher than 13.8-volts).
__ I'd only recommend this type of system to those (like myself) who prefer to be in fuller control of what all is going-on with their running Duke.


" by wiring the twin lead alt exactly as described, and grounding both recs to the battery/frame... that is intended to be a 12v system correct ? "

____ I'm not exactly sure of which posted/suggested system you're referring to but,
whether for a 6-volt or a 12-volt system, it ought work relatively the same for either (providing the power/wattage-consumption is the same). ...
Keep in mind that while a (equal wattage) 12v.system requires double the voltage, it also requires only HALF the amperage (of an equivalent 6v.system) ! _ And since wattage is voltage-times-amperage, the POWER-consumption is thus the same ! _ And an alternator can only offer 'power' .
__ The main (though relatively minor) difference between a 6v.system and a 12v.system, is that the battery of an equivalent 12v.system may require slightly more power from it's alternator in order to receive any charging-current.
I think I once figured that it takes 2.5-watts of raw-power to begin charging a 6-volt battery, whereas a 12-volt battery needs 3.5-watts. _ (So it doesn't really take much higher RPMs to muster-up the extra wattage needed for 12-volt charging.)
(If MotoMike disagrees with this, I hope he will correct me !)


" what a.h.rating 12v battery would you recommend ? "

____ Well the higher the better ! _ In the past, I recall first using a 12v.battery from a Honda 305-Scrambler, then next I found that the battery for a Honda SL350 was a better choice, then finally discovered that the 12v.battery used by the early-70s Yamaha 250/350-twins, fit the best. _ I believe that it's part-no. was something like 12v-5.5N (or the like), and is probably a 5.5Amp/Hour battery.
I also recall managing to fit two of the smallest 12v.batteries ya could get back in those days, which I think were made for the Yamaha 100cc Street-twin. _ The two together gave me 7-amp/hours I think.
Another pair I tried, were two thin but very tall 6-volt batteries (which were then wired in series), and provided two amp.hours more than the stock Monza battery. _ Unfortunately only recall that that battery-model came from some 2-stroke Jap.dirt-bike.


" what would happen if someone wired it exactly as described but did not removed/combine/isolate the grounds at the alt. ? would it be 6 volt or would it simply be "wrong" "

____ Once again, there's no specific 'voltage' directly involved.
The circuit would simply be "wrong", as I believe (without thinking it out, right now) that half the power would be shorted-out.
If you indicate exactly which scheme you're referring to, I'll then bother to explain what would happen within the circuit.


" I also have a 28w early n/c scr charging system to use, "

____ How have you determined that it's the "28w" version ?


" I want to run a higher output headlamp, a horn, a tailight, standard points (battery ignition), and nothing else.
I am not fully commited to either 6v or 12v. "

____ The stock headlight is 6v/30w, but I've always replaced them with a 6v/45w sealed-beam, and no charging issues ever came from it, with the stock alternator.
A horn & brake-light make no difference, with a battery-powered system !
__ A 12-volt system offers more lighting options, such as a L.E.D. type tail-lamp.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob