n-c alternator modifications: discussion and testing

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: ecurbruce...
" Bob, I'd be glad to do the soldering job, I only have the one stator, though"

____ I could probably dig-up a couple used stators and send them to you to solder-up the desired connections and forward to Bill, if he'd be interested enough in testing the results of the mods.
(But this would not be at such a fast pace, of course.)


Possible-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: wcorey...
" Preliminary results of Bruce's Latest are a bit underwhelming but not entirely unexpected... "

____ Exactly what test are these results concerning ?


" Can't be certain I have the wiring right though, physical layout of coils is not very consistent, question is whether the inner's/outer's are in order (or whether that matters). With power applied externally through all coils, got roughly equal magnetic attraction from each of the poles as well as alternating north/south polarities.
Six coils, all done full wave at 3450 rpm;
1 ohm, 4.6vdc, 21w
2 ohm, 8.5vdc, 36w
3 ohm, 11.5vdc, 43w
5 ohm, 15.5vdc, 48w "

____ If these results are from the grand 432-turns in 'straight' series type setup, then something is certainly wrong ! _ As these figures are what might be expected if some of the windings are reversed from what they ought to have been.
If you did all your solder-reconnections in an orderly & logical progression, then I'd suspect that (something like) all the smaller windings are in opposition to all the larger windings - (264 - 168 = 96 resulting windings, for example). _ And if I apply the associated math to that particular theory, then the results ought to have been between 94 and 216-watts - (so apparently that possibility isn't the right answer).
__ How about a 10-ohm load test, Bill ?


" Really would've saved me some effort if I had gone back and read your instructional post Bob, as well as the one previous to this one that we must have been composing at the same time...
While the posthumous addition of major content to past posts has some definite organizational benefits, it still drives me cuckoo trying to keep tabs on 'em. A page or two a day is plenty to keep up with, without having to re-read the previous days worth two or three times... "

____ Well this is one reason why I've said we ought to slowdown a bit, as I can't keep-up with much over a page of postings per day. ... As I start a response-post to one post, and before I finish it, an interruption requires that I post just that which I have done thus far, and then by that point I see other newer posts which I wish to respond to asap since they're fresher, and after I've done with those, I then have to go-back & finish what I had stated before & hadn't finished,, while yet another entire new page has been started which I've been staying unaware of. _ (Still don't think I'm all caught-up yet,, and at this fast pace, I'll only fall even further behind.)


Discontent-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Bob says"____ I could probably dig-up a couple used stators and send them to you to solder-up the desired connections and forward to Bill, if he'd be interested enough in testing the results of the mods.
(But this would not be at such a fast pace, of course.)

Bob, if you have an extra stator you'd care to part with, I wouldn't mind completely rewinding it in the six spool grand style. I have access to fresh winding wire at surplus price. I also have a couple of empty spools left over from before, so it would only take one (four spool ) stator. That way we would have the alternative of coils completely rewound as apposed to the spliced version, one additional configuration. We then could also try other wire sizes...
I'd prefer to send the stator, then to Bill for testing, though I know this will dramatically slow the process, I think for continuity of testing, that would be important.

PM me,
Bruce

So, Bob (and everyone else) as a side bar to this, it might be a good time to share info that Dad and I discovered as part of the process of donating a couple of coil spools to Bill.(though it's off subject a little bit it's probably pertinent at the moment)
Don't know if you were aware that there are two different versions of the narrow case four spool stator. As I was describing just what to send to Bill, I told Dad to be sure to include the little copper shim that holds the spool to the lug. It sits between the plastic and the steel lug, on the tip end, it' bent up 90 degrees, and holds the spool in place. When Dad inspected the stator he was taking from, there were no copper shims. Instead he discovered that the retainer in his case was a steel shim on the bottom side (mounting serface side) of the stator while the copper shim is on the top side. The steel shim is one piece, covers all poles, and is very thin and bent up 90 degrees to hold on plastic spools.
See what you find, as you look at your stators, Dad found he had just about as many of one style as the other. Interesting, huh?

[ecurbruce]

I'm noticing another trend here that I've not seen discussed,( if someone has already discussed it please point me to it,cause it has totally missed me)

In a series setup, as the load (ohms) increases, the watts increases...

grande series
1 ohm,4.56A 4.6Vdc 21W
3 ohm,3.74A 11.5Vdc 43W
5 ohm,3.10A 15.5Vdc 48W

Full wave series
1 ohm, 4.9A 5.0Vdc 24.5W
3 ohm, 4.1A 12.5Vdc 51.2W
5 ohm, 3.4A 17.0Vdc 57.8W

In a parallel setup, as the load (ohms) increases, the watts decreases...

Parallel Mike's 'E'
1 ohm, 7.1A 6.9Vdc 48.9W
3 ohm, 2.9A 11.6Vdc 33.6W
5 ohm, 2.4A 12.2Vdc 29.3W

Stock parallel
1 ohm, 6.6A 6.8Vdc 44.9W
3 ohm, 3.6A 11.0Vdc 39.6W
5 ohm, 2.4A 12.0Vdc 28.8W

Anyone care to comment on this , I need some theory?

[wcorey]

I'm noticing another trend here that I've not seen discussed,( if someone has already discussed it please point me to it,cause it has totally missed me)

Bob has addressed this on more than one occasion, It's all back there somewhere...
Basically, series has a voltage advantage at low current loads but parallel gets the nod for bigger loads, choice would depend on application. Seems like 'stock parallel' would be best at 6v (shouldn't be a surprise as that's what it's designed to do) and maybe or not series at 12v (depending on load). Series would only be a real advantage at lower rpm with lower loads. To optimize, you could conceivably set it up to run series for stop 'n go daylight running with no headlight and then switch to parallel for steady night time runs. At this time there seems to be no magic bullet for all situations, Bob's old original 'switch-able dual parallel' setup (<EDIT> that should be 'switch-able dual series full wave', like Bruce's 2nd test request drawing) still seems to make the most sense to handle a variance of situations.

The wattage output increase/decrease, that's only part of the story, for 12v usage the vdc could be equally or more significant...

Note: As the the load increases, the ohms decrease and vice versa (I'm sure you actually know that)... And it should be full wave grande series.

" Preliminary results of Bruce's Latest are a bit underwhelming but not entirely unexpected... "

____ Exactly what test are these results concerning ?

Oh, come on Bob, just what other setup that I'd be doing is there, that could be confused with "Bruce's Latest" at this point in time? I've decided to use 'Grand series' for now but still don't think it's self-explanatory/descriptive enough.

__ How about a 10-ohm load test, Bill ?

A ten ohm test of what/which? lol.

10 ohm, 21vdc, 44w

...then something is certainly wrong ! _

Could very well be but if the inner/outer order isn't an issue then I don't know what’s off, someone please enlighten me with a concise pictorial layout. As far I can see there are only two ways to do it and each is more or less equal in result.

I disconnected/separated all wires on the stator and rang out/mapped out the individual (two wire) winding sets. If you picture each spool with four wires in a row (coming out of holes in the bottom of the spool flange), numbered 1 through 4, the one consistent thing is that the wire pair layout of the first individual winding set is 1-3 and the other 2-4 (with the exception of the two smaller spools where two ‘end’ wires come out of the same hole). I found no obvious way to discern inner from outer winding sets.
I skipped a few steps and then tried what seemed like the most obvious scheme, connecting 2-3 together on each spool but when powered up produced no magnetic attraction at the pole.
Next try was connecting 3-4, which did produce magnetic attraction, then 1-2 which also worked and also kept the same polarity. Using this scheme, starting with positive dc input on the first large coil, the polarities were north on all three smaller spools and south on two of the larger but north on the (first large) one that the output wires normally attach to. The physical layout was easier using 3-4 connected so I soldered all of those together, then 2 on one spool to 1 on the next, with the one odd large spool reversed. When the whole stator was powered up the compass needle alternated concisely from north to south as it was passed by each pole. The magnetic attraction to a metal object to each pole seemed to have consistent force. I tested it full wave with the usual sequence of loads and posted the somewhat abbreviated results...



Bill

[MotoMike]

Bill

that is surprising. I can see where it would be easy to get something wired wrong, but your testing seems like it should ensure correct wiring. scratching my head again. straight series with alternating wind direction is how most systems using full wave rectification would be wound. I guess the way to tell if we got something wrong would be to compare this with a stator wound with the same number of turns.

Thanks again for the good work.

Mike

[ecurbruce]

Looking back to what JB Collier wrote, (six coil alternator in a narrow case 250, Apr. 30 10:59pm) he's talking 80 watts at 5000 rpm.from his six coil rewire.
Bill, maybe a test of the grande series at 6000 rpm would tell us more?

Bruce.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: ecurbruce...
" Bob, if you have an extra stator you'd care to part with, I wouldn't mind completely rewinding it in the six spool grand style. I have access to fresh winding wire at surplus price. I also have a couple of empty spools left over from before, so it would only take one (four spool ) stator. That way we would have the alternative of coils completely rewound as apposed to the spliced version, one additional configuration. We then could also try other wire sizes... "

____ Bruce, I'm afraid I wouldn't very be interested in donating a stock-stator for rewinding unless the rewind-method to be completed was either my very-own design or someone-else's design which is clearly believed to be the best for maximum usable power. _ Cuz I believe that just one-single continuous stator-winding (as long as it would end-up being), would have too-much 'impedance' (of it's very-own), to efficiently transfer it's power to a high system-load.
__ Now I do have more than one spare and I'd consider giving you one to do as you wish with in exchange for some particular reworking of the other. _ But if your Father also has more spare stators, then it seems that you-yourself wouldn't need me to be YOUR source for such.


" as a side bar to this, it might be a good time to share info that Dad and I discovered as part of the process of donating a couple of coil spools to Bill.
Don't know if you were aware that there are two different versions of the narrow case four spool stator. As I was describing just what to send to Bill, I told Dad to be sure to include the little copper shim that holds the spool to the lug. It sits between the plastic and the steel lug, on the tip end, it' bent up 90 degrees, and holds the spool in place. When Dad inspected the stator he was taking from, there were no copper shims. Instead he discovered that the retainer in his case was a steel shim on the bottom side (mounting serface side) of the stator while the copper shim is on the top side. The steel shim is one piece, covers all poles, and is very thin and bent up 90 degrees to hold on plastic spools.
See what you find, as you look at your stators, Dad found he had just about as many of one style as the other. Interesting, huh? "

____ While I'm pretty-sure I've seen in-hand both types, I don't ever recall making a mental note of those differences, probably because I've never noticed both types at the same-time before.
__ Also of vague recollection, I think I've once noticed that the pattern of connections between spools, varied between stator-types as well. _ Probably not electrically, but rather just physically, location-wise (concerning the exact spots where the various coil-wire's lead-ends -(also called: 'pig-tails') happen exit at, from each spool).
This (somewhat disconcerting) difference might be what Bill was referring to when he mentioned something similar concerning the coil-wire lead-ends on the two added coil-spools (which you sent him) being more logically arranged than those of the four spools which were already on his-own stator.
So I assume that you-yourself didn't notice any such differences, when you added your extra two coil-spools to your-own stator !?
Can you have your father check his-own differing stock of 6-pole stators, for any such differences ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

Grand series test run.

Full wave, 6k rpm

2 ohm, 4.8a, 9.8vdc, 47w

3 ohm, 4.5a, 13.8vdc, 62w

5 ohm, 4a, 20vdc, 80w

6 ohm, 3.8a, 23vdc, 87w


Bill

[DewCatTea-Bob]

I'm noticing another trend here that I've not seen discussed,( if someone has already discussed it please point me to it,cause it has totally missed me)

In a series setup, as the load (ohms) increases, the watts increases...
grande series
1 ohm,4.56A 4.6Vdc 21W
3 ohm,3.74A 11.5Vdc 43W
5 ohm,3.10A 15.5Vdc 48W
Full wave series
1 ohm, 4.9A 5.0Vdc 24.5W
3 ohm, 4.1A 12.5Vdc 51.2W
5 ohm, 3.4A 17.0Vdc 57.8W

In a parallel setup, as the load (ohms) increases, the watts decreases...
Parallel Mike's 'E'
1 ohm, 7.1A 6.9Vdc 48.9W
3 ohm, 2.9A 11.6Vdc 33.6W
5 ohm, 2.4A 12.2Vdc 29.3W
Stock parallel
1 ohm, 6.6A 6.8Vdc 44.9W
3 ohm, 3.6A 11.0Vdc 39.6W
5 ohm, 2.4A 12.0Vdc 28.8W

Anyone care to comment on this , I need some theory?

____ I believe this is only a fluke-coincidence (in a minimal way)...
In ordinary/common electrical-circuits, it does-NOT matter if the AC power-source has come from a parallel or a series type arrangement !
It's quite-naturally /very normally expected for the load & wattage-consumption figures to relate just as they're noted to do within your presented "parallel setup" example-figures !
However, the indicated reverse load & wattage-consumption example-figures within your presented "series setup" , are certainly 'bASS-ackwardS' and thus fairly questionable !
__ We have good reason to expect the strange outcome we get from the series-arrangement of the stock stator-windings, but, that latest similar test-outcome which Bill has somehow obtained, is just plain-freaky and without any good explanation (IF he got ALL 12 of the individual/separate coil-windings all properly arranged in true/straight 'series').
__ So I'm meaning to state/proclaim here that the fact that two (normally related!) windings are connected in 'series' fashion, should NOT mean that the noted "reverse" load & wattage-consumption outcome, ought be expected !
And-also, the "reduction-effect" which we had expected to get rid of with a "straight" 'series' type winding/connection,, STILL remains (at least partially) !


Straight-Cheers,
-Bob