n-c alternator modifications: discussion and testing

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: wcorey...
" Yes, Bruce is correct,"

____ If I were so inclined, I'd dig-up Bill's original post-wording to better iron-out whether he was talking about alternator-created current-flow or current-flow provided from another/external DC-source (put through the alt.windings for polarity-test reasons),, but it really wouldn't matter anyhow.


" I'm thinking in terms of dc (still erroneously, apparently). "

____ What needs to be kept in mind is that 'AC' is actually DC in one-direction (at one moment of time) and-also DC in the other-direction (at the next moment of time) !


" Bob has me confused with his past argument (my interpretation of it anyway) that the entire circuit becomes dc once a rectifier is in it "

____ I believe I must've stated 'diode', not "rectifier", (these are two more words which are not actually interchangeable, as some people may think !), cuz a 'rectifier' can be of the 'full-wave' type, but a single 'diode' can only provide 'half-wave' rectification. _ So as I had said before, when a DIODE is in a circuit, the entire circuit it's within, can then only flow in ONE direction, (thus it's indeed DC only) !
(I sure hope that no-one comes & claims that a 'diode' & a 'rectifier' are two different names for the very exact-same thing, or else I'll REALLY want to do some hefty head-bopping !-lol)
__ But in this-case, we have a full-wave RECTIFIER, which of course must allow AC-flow to occur (only!)- within the AC power-source itself,, while only (pulsating)- DC is allowed on the opposite/outer-side of the rectifier -('rect.block' in this case).


" That said, the practical aspects of wiring this 'Bruce's Special Grand Series Arrangement' are not so easy for me to unravel "

____ Besides the obvious reverse soldering-work,
to make sure that all connections are consistent for properly converting the 12 individual coil-windings into just 6 effectively 'full' (72turn, as opposed to the worst-case possibility of 6 effectively 'partial' [44-28=16turn]) spool-windings,, a core/coil polarity-tester (such as a weak compass) ought to be used to check for correct polarity arrangements.


" (BTW, the 'regular' series arrangement could easily be viewed as or confused with, by the likes of me anyway, the "12 individual-windings in series" ; or: "6 coil-pairs in series or "6pr.series" and it could just as easily be 4 coils). "

____ Very good point about the "12 individual-windings in series" designation ! _ As that indeed could easily be confused with the unmodified arrangement, (which is: '2-sets of 6 individual coil-windings',, while the desired grand-scheme is: '6-pairs of individual coil-windings').
I guess Mike's used term of "straight"-series, ought be a fair 'short-name' for the 'grand series-reconfiguration' type arrangement-scheme.


" Looks fine when I see it on paper but when I pick up the stator I'm lost, mostly due to not being able to determine which winding in each set is the inner/outer.
I can't visually untangle the haphazard method of winding used. "

____ That's quite understandable Bill, and even if it wasn't obvious that you'd be working blind, it still wouldn't be prudent to commence-forward with any new-connections, without first double-checking that the intended polarity is that which is expected.
So after making notes of all the original/stock connections, just unsolder them all and check each coil-circuit separately for it's North or South polarity.
Then it's a fairly simple reconnection-job, to make sure that both coil-windings (on each of the 6 spools), are both reconnected to have the very-same polarity,, yet opposite that of those on neighboring spools.
I'm not sure now but, it may simplify the connection-rearrangement by turning every-other spool, 180-degrees around. ...
How about a close-up picture of your stator (showing most all of the solder-connections) ?


" I've physically mapped out all the individual (I still don't even know what to call them) 'winding sets' and connections, I believe if I can determine what the first coil/core arrangement is, the rest will follow in logical order. "

____ You need to pass a straight-line (filtered/non-pulsating) DC-flow through each of the two coil-windings (of each of the 6 spools), and note the polarity which the current-flow causes the core-coil to expel.
An AA-cell powered continuity-tester should do the job of exciting each individual coil-winding, so as to detect either expelled North or South magnetic-field (from the core-coil), using a N/S-compass near the core-coil's tip-end.


" So when I put power to a set of wires and see what the core polarity is, how does that tell me which is which. "

____ Since you're working blind on guessing which lead-end is which (of the two pairs of lead-ends per coil-spool),, here's what could be expected when you connect a continuity-tester to a chosen pair of a coil-spool's 4 spool-winding lead-ends...
You have a 50/50 chance that the continuity-tester will indicate no continuity, while you also have a 25%-chance that your test will create a North-field, and also a 25%-chance that your test will create a South-field. _ (That's with the expectation that you'll keep your continuity-tester's leads consistently-arranged in relation to all the pairs of lead-ends, of course.)


" Unfortunately all four of the original spools are laid out differently from each other, only the two added ones are a redundant pattern. "

____ That's one reason why the actual polarity must be confirmed with the DC-testing (provided by a continuity-tester).


" Nomenclature? I'm perpetually confused, 'stator' is about the only one I have down pat. "

____ Whenever I'm unaware on an officially-named term (or believe that it's insufficient to be pre-understood by untrained sorts), I always use the same logically-derived compound-word/term for each particular-item or conception, so as to remain clear and avoid confusion ! _ As it's otherwise too disconcerting to use differing terms & names for referring to the same things all the time ! _ (As everyone ought realize by now, this is a particular pet-peeve of mine.)


" What's the standard terminology for...
what I've been calling the 'core', the laminated iron, six radially spoke-ed item with the 'coils' on it. "

____ That's clearly the (main) 'stator-core' !

" what I've been calling the 'individual cores', the laminated rectangular iron post that each 'spool' sits on/around. "

____ I'd refer to that part as the stator's 'core-finger' or 'core-tip', but Bruce has used the word "lug", (which I find to be less descriptive).


" what I've been calling a 'spool' or 'bobbin', the plastic holder including the windings/pair of coils wrapped around it."

____ The plastic-holder itself may well be a "bobbin", but along-with the coil-windings as well, I would then think that "spool" is quite descriptive fine enough.


" What I've been calling a 'coil', winding', 'winding set', 'a series of turns of wire which comprise an individual coil' (one wire end in, one out), etc. "

____ A "coil" could of course be a single complete-turn of wire but usually refers to a number of 'turns', at which-point it becomes a coil-winding, and when the winding extends over more than one spool, it's then certainly a stator-winding.


" what I've been calling a 'set' or 'pair' of the above (on a single 'spool', 4 wire ends). "

____ I'm sure there's no single-word name for a 'pair of coil-windings' on a single spool, so it ought be referred to as a 'dual coil-winding' or 'coil-winding pair', on one spool, (with each winding having it's own two lead-ends, of course).


" what I've been calling a 'series of 4/6' of the above, (each of which is on an individual 'spool'). "

____ Dual-coil stator-windings.


" what I've been calling two of the above, in series, "

____ Single alt.stator-winding ?


____ After the first two or three, it's all gotten pretty-vague.

[ecurbruce]

Bill wrote ___"Looks fine when I see it on paper but when I pick up the stator I'm lost, mostly due to not being able to determine which winding in each set is the inner/outer. Even under binocular magnification, I can't visually untangle the haphazard method of winding used. I've physically mapped out all the individual (I still don't even know what to call them) 'winding sets' and connections, I believe if I can determine what the first coil/core arrangement is, the rest will follow in logical order.
So when I put power to a set of wires and see what the core polarity is, how does that tell me which is which. Unfortunately all four of the original spools are laid out differently from each other, only the two added ones are a redundant pattern."

Bill, let's see if I can be of some assistance with that one...
First isolate the two circuits on the stator, then hook up a power supply to (only one) of the circuits. I use a 12 volt supply that used to be a battery charger for a toy car. I always wire in a load in series with the coils, I use a 12 volt light bulb. So, say you're mapping coils (1-4),attach the positive DC to (1), the light bulb(load) to (4) in series, then the neg. DC to the light bulb. Attach your multimeter (checking DC voltage) positive lead to (1). with the negetive probe of your multimeter check voltage at (A) in, (A) out, (B) in, (B) out, (C) in, (C) out, (D) in, (D) out. The continuity will tell you which wires are related to the circuit being mapped, and as you get further away from (1), the voltage changes, thus telling you the position each lead holds in the scheme of the circuit. Mark them all, then repeat for the other set of coils((2-3)). Once you have them all mapped and marked, refer to Mike's last drawing to see how to swap them up.Maybe at this point it would be a good idea to assigh a notation to each wire lead as it enters and exits each coil?

I think the biggest clue when I was testing the circuits was how the voltage changes the farther away from the positive DC source (1) I probed. (A) will be less voltage than (B) , which will be less voltage than (C) which will be less voltage than (D)...

Hope that helps,
The nomenclature... I like!
Bruce

[wcorey]

Bruce
I think this re-draw of your re-draw describes what we discuss above for the straight series tests is what we need. the colors are just to help in tracing the wire.

Oh, so now we get drawings in technicolor, lol, the bar has been raised, hope it's a trend that continues...
Nice job to both of you, BTW.

Now I need one of the actual stator.

Bill

[ecurbruce]

We're all after this in such a fragmented manor, I have to just laugh, If the four of us were ever on line in real time, it would be...

[DewCatTea-Bob]

We're all after this in such a fragmented manor, I have to just laugh, If the four of us were ever on line in real time, it would be...

____ I-myself think all this thread's postings are moving-along too fast for everyone to fully digest everything completely. _ I think it would be somewhat beneficial to observe the 3-posts per day rule for at least this-thread. _ (Otherwise my wife my take some step to keep me off for much longer.)
Besides, when I have to post too quickly, mistakes tend to occur which come-back to take a bite out of me.

____ As for converting the stock 4 core-coil stator to 6 core-coils which have all their individual/independent 12 unit-windings rewired-up for a single-Grand series-winding...
It's my opinion that Bruce (along-with my back-up guidance), would be the best person here, to do the actual conversion-work. _ As I already know that Bruce understands what actually needs to be done to check for proper polarity connections, before actually completing the particular soldering-work.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

First isolate the two circuits on the stator, then hook up a power supply to (only one) of the circuits. I use a 12 volt supply that used to be a battery charger for a toy car. I always wire in a load in series with the coils, I use a 12 volt light bulb. So, say you're mapping coils (1-4),attach the positive DC to (1), the light bulb(load) to (4) in series, then the neg. DC to the light bulb. Attach your multimeter (checking DC voltage) positive lead to (1). with the negetive probe of your multimeter check voltage at (A) in, (A) out, (B) in, (B) out, (C) in, (C) out, (D) in, (D) out. The continuity will tell you which wires are related to the circuit being mapped, and as you get further away from (1), the voltage changes, thus telling you the position each lead holds in the scheme of the circuit. Mark them all, then repeat for the other set of coils((2-3)). Once you have them all mapped and marked, refer to Mike's last drawing to see how to swap them up.Maybe at this point it would be a good idea to assigh a notation to each wire lead as it enters and exits each coil?

Been there, done that, I guess I'm just not being clear (problem lately), though not sure I can think of another way to put it. Or I'm missing the obvious in your explanation.

All I need to know is how to tell (here we go with the nomenclature challenge) which set (sets have already been mapped) of two wires (of the four present on each spool) is the inner winding and which is the outer. I just need to know on one spool, preferably an end one, then I can extrapolate the rest from there.
Or maybe I only think I need to define the beginning of the inner/outer sequence but really don't?

I think I should just hold out for a picture, with circles and arrows and pretty colors...

I'm gonna go hit the local bar for a beer and catch the end of the Bruins/Canucks game, maybe that'll clear my head a bit...


Bill

[ecurbruce]

picture

coil-photo.jpg

That says "top of winding where (1) goes through. That would be winding (A). That black wire is (1) comming in, white wire is (2) comming in, disreguard that green wire, it's a ground going out, something I wired previously.

Bob says"____ As for converting the stock 4 core-coil stator to 6 core-coils which have all their individual/independent 12 unit-windings rewired-up for a single-Grand series-winding...
It's my opinion that Bruce (along-with my back-up guidance), would be the best person here, to do the actual conversion-work. _ As I already know that Bruce understands what actually needs to be done to check for proper polarity connections, before actually completing the particular soldering-work."

Bob, I'd be glad to do the soldering job, I only have the one stator, though(the one installed in my cases). I don't have a test center set up, either. let me think of a way to accomplish that one...I have a drill press that'll do 3600 RPM, maybe I can chuck it up in there?

Bruce.

[MotoMike]

I think Bob is probably right about Bruce being the go to guy for this rewire. He latched onto the concept without input and pretty much had it figured out before we discussed it. He has the parts and the first hand knowledge of taking them apart to understand how they are constructed. Go Bruce.

That being said, if someone had stator that was bad or that they would sacrifice, it would probably be easier to strip the forms and wind the new stator by hand. Would need the tape and insulating epoxy to do it right though.

I think that what we are discovering here thanks to Bill and Bruce’s work is worth putting into an article on the subject. Though there are not that many of these systems out there, some folks are really hankering to know what we are finding out.

It is fortunate coincidence that we find a group so geographically displaced, with varying skill-sets, all curious about what is going on in this alternator, coming together in a way that none of us could do on our own. And adding to the whole as we unwrap the mysteries of the system.

I don't mind the pace of discovery though I get what Bob is saying. I think any time you artificially stifle conversation with an arbitrarily imposed post limit; you will lose the spontaneity of the discovery. If you have to wait to post, sometimes it will never get posted.
I am impressed with Bill and Bruce as no sooner than we say, what if we were to wire it like this? Then pow! Bill has wired it like that and produced the data. Or we say, I have been wanting to take apart one of those stators to see how it is wired, then bang! Bruce had done it and produced the wiring diagrams. Then with our differing backgrounds, Bob and I are left to ponder what those crafty Italians were up to. It has been mostly fun and a little frustrating, but all in all I am enjoying the journey. I know from reading other posts, that there are others here qualified to discuss this as well, so don't mean to suggest no one else could do it. I am having fun and as long as I am, I will keep at it and feel fortunate to be a part of it. thanks guys.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: wcorey...
" All I need to know is how to tell
which set of two wires (of the four present on each spool) is the inner winding and which is the outer. I just need to know on one spool, preferably an end one, then I can extrapolate the rest from there.
Or maybe I only think I need to define the beginning of the inner/outer sequence but really don't? "

____ It seems you've missed my (delayed) explanation for determining which pairs of coil-winding lead-ends need to be connected to which other pairs of lead-ends...
You don't really need to already be aware of which go to an inner coil-winding and which go to an outer one.
You merely have make sure that both coil-windings on the same spool are connected-up so that both will produce the same polarity (with a test DC-current).
So lets say, (just for an example, concerning a single spool's two pairs of lead-ends [one inner pair & one outer]), that you connect a continuity-tester's Red-lead to your (1st)- coil-spool's outer-most Right-side lead-end and it's Black-lead to the same spool's outer-most Left-side lead-end, and that in turn produces/expels a North-field,, while moving your test-leads over-to the other/inner-most pair (Red to Right & Black to Left), then produces/expels a South-field...
You could then realize (for sure!) which way the two separate coil-winding circuits must be connected in order for them both to provide the vary-same (N or S) field. _ (So it doesn't really matter then which was the 'inner' or the 'outer', after both those individual coil-windings get properly reconnected, anyhow).
__ I hope this example along with what I've instructed in my previous post to you, provides you with an idea of what ought to be done.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

Preliminary results of Bruce's Latest are a bit underwhelming but not entirely unexpected...
Can't be certain I have the wiring right though, physical layout of coils is not very consistent, question is whether the inner's/outer's are in order (or whether that matters). With power applied externally through all coils, got roughly equal magnetic attraction from each of the poles as well as alternating north/south polarities.

Six coils, all done full wave at 3450 rpm;

1 ohm, 4.6vdc, 21w

2 ohm, 8.5vdc, 36w

3 ohm, 11.5vdc, 43w

5 ohm, 15.5vdc, 48w


<EDIT> Really would've saved me some effort if I had gone back and read your instructional post Bob, as well as the one previous to this one that we must have been composing at the same time... While the posthumous addition of major content to past posts has some definite organizational benefits, it still drives me cuckoo trying to keep tabs on 'em. A page or two a day is plenty to keep up with, without having to re-read the previous days worth two or three times...


Bill