1964 250 Diana Mark 3

[machten]

" The other thing that points me towards that is the tail light. "

____ The earliest Mark-III model did not have any means for a brake-light !

Yes, that's my understanding too. But it did have a tail light - and if my memory serves me correctly, I think given a bit of time I can come up with a Berliner brochure that showed that tail light on an early US Diana.

Kev

[ajleone]

The tail light in the picture is a single bulb tail light, which I believe were on these 4-speed Diana 250 Mark3's. There is no brake light bulb in the tail light nor brake switch or support for that in the wiring also no horn. Depending on you local laws, that might present a challenge to make the bike road-legal.
Very cool and very desirable bike none the less.
Tony

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" The other thing that points me towards that is the tail light. "

____ The earliest Mark-III model did not have any means for a brake-light !

" But it did have a tail light "

____ That's true of-course ! - I did-not at all mean to imply the reason for that lack could've been because there was no tail-lamp included on that early model.
__ (Besides for regular display of obvious questions followed by direct answers, I often quote another's stated-wording so as to merely indicate what has inspired my associated response-wording.)


" I think given a bit of time I can come up with a Berliner brochure that showed that tail light on an early US Diana. "

____ That MAY be true for it's PHYSICAL-appearance but, not likely for it's internal-functionality... Cuz THE 'Diana' employs a battery-powered electrical-system with full tail & brake lighting !
__ But perhaps you were just doing as many-others have often done and actually meant 'Diana Mark III' when you merely stated "Diana" ? - (As those two model-names actually represent two VERY different Duke-models !)
__ I happen to still own an early 1963 D.Mark-III owner's-manual, and it's very quite obvious that the very-early 4-speed D.Mark-III model was little-more than a 250-Motocross model with a road-frame & seat, 1-inch smaller wheels with road-gearing and a larger tank, and of-course also the hot/red M.III-camshaft. _ Otherwise, it shared all the very-same parts with the off-road Motocross-model (with no brake-light, etc) !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[machten]

But perhaps you were just doing as many-others have often done and actually meant 'Diana Mark III' when you merely stated "Diana" ?

Agghh! Yes. I fell into that trap. My apologies.

Thanks to all for this valuable information which i have shared with the owner, Paul. All of which has convinced him now to enter the internet age and join our fraternity, so I'll leave him to introduce himself and take up this thread on his own behalf. (Which is a good thing on several fronts, not the least from my perspective, that I have enough to learn about my own Dukes! )

Kev

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: ajleone...
" The tail light in the picture is a single bulb tail light, which I believe were on these 4-speed Diana 250 Mark3's. "

____ Yes, (now that I've purposefully noted the particular tail-lamp which can possibly be seen in the presented pictures*), I certainly agree that that tail-lamp is likely the stock TL.model originally employed on the early Motocross & D.Mark-III 250 Duke-models (which didn't include any brake-light).
__ But there's two discrepancies which I don't think Tony actually meant to allow conveyed as left worded...
First, by "single bulb", I think he must've actually meant: 'single-filament bulb' ,, and
second, since there were never any "4-speed Diana 250 Mark3's" , (as 'Mark 3' ought signify a Mach-I top-end), I assume that he must've actually meant: '4-speed 250 Diana Mark III models'. _ (Please correct me if I'm at all wrong about what you had really meant to state, Tony).


" There is no brake light bulb in the tail light nor brake switch or support for that in the wiring "

____ That's correct, as the mag.type alternator only had just two alt.stator wire-leads - one yellow-wire for the ign.system, and one red-wire for the lights,, (but no white-wire for the brake-light, as the newer non-battery models included).
So if the featured Duke-model of this thread has only the two alt.wire-leads, then it was probably actually 'made' in late-1962 and should've been titled as a model-year 1963-model,, (as most 1962-models had motor-numbers no later than 83500 (roughly).


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob
(* I'm providing zoomed-in L & R views of the areas displaying the tail-lamp, from those pix.)

[hobby]

Gents, it is with tanks that I read your answers to many of the questions I had about the Diana Mark III of mine. I am the owner, and will provide some of the infromation I have received over the years about this bike.
I bought it as a "correct" Diana Mark III. The US Tittles show it was a 1964 yet the Berliner sticker in the headstock shows it as a 1963 model. However these stickers can be played around with and is a new one as the frame was painted. Looking at your comments I think it is correct that the bike was built in 1963 but sold in 1963 perhaps.
I have a Berliner original advertisement page that shows this model. Its not the same as the high handlebar model as was also sold by them. That has a larger rear tailight and higher handlebars. I was told that Berliner requeted this model (mine) from the factory as a weekend racer in the US. This came with a race kit such as the muffler etc etc. Other than my bike and a second one I used to own I have not seen any others in real life or pictures on the internet as such. The previous owner told me that these bikes were mainly raced and as such not many survived or for that matter were sold at the time. He himself had not come across any others either in this format. Even Mick Walkers book does not realy cover this particular model (only the high handlebar model with the larger taillight). I am not sure is there were any other differences between these two versions. Perhaps the larger carbie is a possibility?
One main thing I have not checked out as yet is how many gears it has (4 or 5 speed box). The bike is in storage and my memory of riding it only 4 times around the block does not recall it either. All I remember is that its very hard to start and that it goes very fast with the power not comming into play till high rev range.
My plan is to start using it. But because of the no kickstart (I now have one to fit) and the igintion system and hard to start I have some work ahead of me. I might have to put a milder cam into it, but that I will see once I have done everthing else.
It was interesting to read that it has a 175-200 clutch sidecover on it. I will look insode and see what they have done to make that fit and maybe try and get the right cover for it.
I will keep you infromed about the number of gears.

[hobby]

By the way gents, the original brochure page I have of this bike from Berlinner does show the bike with this small tail light. It is a single bulb single wire job with no brake light facility in it.
The advertisement also shows it as a 4 speed bike not 5 speed woth 30 HP high compression engine, Permanent mag. ignition OHC, and designated as a 250 Diana Mark III.

[hobby]

Oh and the only thing I can see on the brochure picture of the bike compared to mine which is different is the gaer chage lever which should be a toe and heel job and the foot pegs which should be the standard rubber type further forward. The advertisement also shows the reverse cone race muffler on it.

So all in all it looks like that this bike was probably manufactured in 1962 or 1963 and sold in the US in 1964. Its called a 250 Diana Mark III. I am happy that the engine number and frame number seems to be in line with those dates which I am happy about. All I have to do now is make it into a road usable bike without distroying its originality (or at least make it reverseable). I hope to use this bike as a Giro bike in Italy in the future. Since I have onwed it it hase only done about 5 km and the only other wear and tear is by me looking at it from time to time...........

I think I will fit the advance retard system that Kev so kindely donated to me and re-set the timing for easy starting. I will fit a small jell battery to the bike and some brake light switches so I can get it licensed. I will not connect the battery to the alternator, but charge it as and when required. The main lighting system I will leave connected as is. I will try and fit a small break light bulb (maybe LCD) in the small tailinght if it fits inside. Fit the kickstarter to the engine. While the engine is apart I will check the internals and fix a leaking valve guide. Maybe fit a slightly milder cam if it needs it. Move the rear sets further downward so I can ride with my long legs. Hopefully in 2014 it will be in Italy for its maiden Giro ride.

I thank you all for your very valuable input into my little bike which I like very much. Special thanks to Kev who has not stopped the forum managment from me becomming a member of the forum. Private joke.
I will let you all know when its all done and what the outcome is.

Paul

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I have a Berliner original advertisement page that shows this model. Its not the same as the high handlebar model as was also sold by them. That has a larger rear tailight and higher handlebars. "

____ You must have the rarest/earliest Mark-III model, as the newer '63/64-model (with 5-speeds) was upgraded with those mentioned parts so as to then make the M.III model-line street-legal.



" I was told that Berliner requeted this model (mine) from the factory as a weekend racer in the US. "

____ Yes, that's right,, there were a very few of them made for special-order for those who wanted such for track/road-racing, (not intended to be used on the streets).



" I have not seen any others in real life or pictures on the internet as such. "

____ I've owned one of each model-year of the Mark-III/3 model-line, except the original-model (as you have),, but I've never even seen such an earliest-example in person.
You may have one of the very last remaining examples (that's still in one piece).



" I am not sure is there were any other differences between these two versions. Perhaps the larger carbie is a possibility? "

____ I'm fairly sure that ALL the D.Mark 'III' models came-stock with a 27mm-SSI carb,, but I think a factory race-kit could come with an optional 32mm SSI.
The model-line didn't come-stock with a 29mm-SSI until the 1965 model-year (when it then got all the same top-end parts as the Mach-I model).



" One main thing I have not checked out as yet is how many gears it has (4 or 5 speed box). "

____ If it has a 5-speed trans, then the Duke is a 'fake' (of that which it appears to be) ! - Certainly it's a 4-speeder.
__ Did you yet check to confirm that your Duke's alt.cable only contains just two wire-leads ?



" it goes very fast with the power not comming into play till high rev range.
I might have to put a milder cam into it, "

____ The STOCK/red-cam is not so very wild and should not seem as you've indicated !
So perhaps someone has installed a G&W/F1-cam into it.



" It was interesting to read that it has a 175-200 clutch sidecover on it. I will look insode and see what they have done to make that fit and maybe try and get the right cover for it. "

____ No real need to get & install a n-c.250-cover (unless you install all 7 clutch-plate pairs).



" the original brochure page I have of this bike from Berlinner does show the bike with this small tail light. It is a single bulb single wire job with no brake light facility in it. "

____ That's all consistent with the earliest Mark-III model !
It's alternator-cable should contain just 2-wire-leads - 1-yellow & 1-red, (and no white-wire for the brake-light).



" The advertisement also shows it as a 4 speed bike not 5 speed "

____ That's as it should be, as the 5-speed models didn't become commonly available before late 1963.



" and designated as a 250 Diana Mark III. "

____ Right, as that's indeed the 'correct' title-name for the pre-1965 model-line,
(and just as is seen titled on the front-cover of my owner's-manual) !
__ (Where-as the original 'Diana' is specifically title-named as "Diana 250" !)


..

" I will fit a small jell battery to the bike and some brake light switches
I will not connect the battery to the alternator, "

____ But it's a very simple (& cheap) bit of added wiring to keep the battery charged !



" I will try and fit a small break light bulb (maybe LCD) in the small tailinght if it fits inside. "

____ It shouldn't be much trouble to fit a small red-LED setup within there.



" Maybe fit a slightly milder cam if it needs it. "

____ Perhaps whatever cam-model is in it, will work better within your 350-project.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[machten]

" it goes very fast with the power not comming into play till high rev range.
I might have to put a milder cam into it, "

____ The STOCK/red-cam is not so very wild and should not seem as you've indicated !
So perhaps someone has installed a G&W/F1-cam into it.

I've had a short ride of this Duke and can attest that nothing happens until north of about 5.5K rpm and then the experience is not too dissimilar to a two stroke hitting its expansion chamber sweet spot - it is that distinct (and I say that as a previous owner of an H1A Kawasaki Mach III in my ignorant years in the mid 70's before I decided to purchase a bike that went around corners after losing some skin on the tarmac )

Kev