Identification Help-My 1965 Mark 3 Diana'ish Find

[erockson]

Hello everyone, new here! Joined because I need help identifying what I've stumbled across here. Of course the foil #'s are long gone and from what I've been able to gather so far it's a 1965 (found the 65 stamped on the inside brake stay of the left fork after searching around on the internet for hours on ways to identify these bikes). To me it looked like the Mark 3 Diana's I've seen, well at least from the tank and the "Mark 3" logo'd toolbox. But I started having questions the more I looked at other bikes and reference sources on the internet, but then is seems Ducati during this time liked to mix and match a bit and there is no 100% hard and fast rules even when it comes to what engine # goes with what model. My engine # DM250M1 00617 isn't listed on any reference guide and the closest 2 I found on the bevelheaven site are a 1966 Mach 1 (DM2501M1 00529) and an unlisted year 250 Diana Supersport (DM250M1 00648). Also I started questioning the the handlebars/upper triple clamp/headlight ears which seem more like what was on a Monza instead of the short ears and clip on bars that I see on the original Diana's. Also there's the off color (blue) chain guard that has to be off another bike, and finally there's the rear shocks which again from what I've seen the Diana's had exposed coils not the covers? The first picture is everything I was able to find of the bike, so I'm trying to figure out what I've got and if I'm nuts for trying to restore this thing and should just part it out. Help please!!!







Any and all help is much appreciated!

[JimF]

Wow!

M1 on the engine means it is a Mach 1 motor!

Mark 3 on the toolbox is a great sign.

Veglia tach was standard (I think) on Mach 1 and Mark 3 models.

Same for the 150mph speedometer.

You've got a valuable bike there!

Welcome

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Hello everyone, new here! "

____ Welcome as our newest listed member 'erockson' !


" Joined because I need help identifying what I've stumbled across here. "

____ Now THAT's a prime-example of every Duker's wish/dream to stumble-across !!


" from what I've been able to gather so far it's a 1965 (found the 65 stamped on the inside brake stay of the left fork "

____ It's no-doubt actually a '66 model, as the fork-leg clue merely indicates roughly when the f.leg itself was made.


" To me it looked like the Mark 3 Diana's I've seen, well at least from the tank and the "Mark 3" logo'd toolbox.
but then is seems Ducati during this time liked to mix and match a bit "

____ Are you (& the Duke) in the USA? _ If so, then Tom B. -(Thomas Bailey) no-doubt would be your best source for what the actual story is on this special-gem you have here... (a mix of M1 & Mk3).
Until I talked with him a few years back, I had thought that only less than a dozen Mach-I models were imported into the U.S., but Tom told me that actually a good number more were actually imported by Berliner, who then altered that batch of M1-models themselves (as they saw fit), so as to make Mark-3 models out of them. _ Until now, I've had next to no experience to collaborate that info which Tom had given me.
In any case, you have found for yourself a very rare Duke-model !!


" and there is no 100% hard and fast rules even when it comes to what engine # goes with what model. "

____ I wouldn't exactly say that ! ... Back before many others have done similar model-mix.uping, Ducati was fairly consistent with serial-number ranges & the model-lines which received them.
In the case of Mach-I models, they even received their very-own line of sequential motor-numbers, and "M1" stamped on the motor-case makes positive-identification that (at least) the motor is in fact a (quite rare in the U.S.!) Mach-I model !


" My engine # DM250M1 00617 isn't listed on any reference guide and the closest 2 I found on the bevelheaven site are a 1966 Mach 1 (DM2501M1 00529) and an unlisted year 250 Diana Supersport (DM250M1 00648). "

____ As far as I know, Ducati themselves never had a model-line named "Diana Supersport " and whenever I've seen that name (or the like, [such as '250-Daytona'])), I just assumed the owner coined it up himself for lack of knowing the actual official-name of his Mk3-like Duke-model. _ But now I'm thinking that that strange model-name may have been promoted by Berliner for referencing that concoction which they had mix-produced themselves. _ And if so, then THAT may very well be what you have found for yourself.


" Also I started questioning the the handlebars/upper triple clamp/headlight ears which seem more like what was on a Monza instead of the short ears and clip on bars that I see on the original Diana's. "

____ Now those differences which you've pointed-out are indeed the changes which Berliner asked Ducati for, for the 'USA'-type versions, as next to no Duke-models ever got imported with the standard European garb (which most 'Dukers' [not 'bikers'] prefer!).
__ Also of note, while the real Mach-I models did not come-stock with the tach set-up (which Mk3s did), the M1-motors did come-stock with the same twin-lead (2 yellow-wire) alternators which the Monza-models employed ! _ So you might want to check-into that clue to help verify that your motor is a stock Mach-I model.
Also, since the electrical-system is the main-difference between a Mach-I & a Mark-III, then if your Duke has the battery-type system, then I-myself believe that you should think of your Duke as a '250Mach I' !


" Also there's the off color (blue) chain guard that has to be off another bike, and finally there's the rear shocks which again from what I've seen the Diana's had exposed coils not the covers? "

____ The blue color rings a bell concerning what Tom had told me, but I don't recall the exact details concerning it cuz that which Tom had told me about it seemed too incredible for me to believe actually true enough to commit to permanent-memory. _ You might want to look for clues indicating that the frame (or maybe other parts) were also originally painted the same blue-color.
__ You (like many others) keep stating "Diana" seemingly in reference to the older pre-1965 'Diana Mark III' model-line (which never seemed to be able to shake-off that name for later year Mk3-versions), however actually 'Diana' is a misleading name to use alone for Mk3s because it's the actual-name of a rare 4-speed (and particular!) 250-model !
So merely using just the name "Diana" adds to confusion amongst Duker-want-to-be types (who have been coming to believe that that name means reference to any n-c Mark-3).


" so I'm trying to figure out what I've got and if I'm nuts for trying to restore this thing and should just part it out. "

____ Others (investor-types) who may own the very-same Duke-model would no-doubt love you to part-out your vary-rare find ! _ But certainly you've already before learned enough about what you have, to actually be totally un-serious about such a notion as that !
__ Yes, it's most definitely a TOP prime-example of an old Ducati that's very well quite worthy of full-restoration !! _ (I'd assume it's value to then be somewhere between 5000 & 15000, and most likely roughly the average within that area.)


____ Please let us know if your motor has the two yellow-wire alt.cable (or 3-wire -[red;white;yellow] alt.cable of the Mk3), and we can then be more certain of what you actually have.


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[erockson]

Thanks so much for all the info so far!!

I should definitely give a bit more of an introduction to both myself and the bike at this point. I'm in Southern California and dabble in my spare time with fixing/flipping bikes (mostly old japs). Here's my latest one almost completed (needs the seat upholstered), a 1986 Suzuki GS450 that I picked up for $250 in terrible (but running) condition and dumped $1250 and 6 months of weekend labor into:



I'm getting ready to sell it and will probably get in the neighborhood of $3000 for it. So as you can see I'm definitely no "Duker" and was just trolling Craigslist for another cheap old bike to fix and flip since that one is nearing completion, when I came across an ad for a 1962 Ducati 250 with no picture and a description about how it was a guys bike who took it apart a few months after he got it to do some performance mods and got a Hodaka bought for him and left this bike sitting for 40 years (thus the 600 miles on the odo). The guy selling, a supposed friend of the original owners family who inherited the bike to try and put it back together, happened to be just up the street from me so I figured what the hell and went to check it out with no idea about these bikes and figured I couldn't go wrong even if I had to part it out so I picked it up. So I bargained him down from $250 to $200.... yea, sorry to drop that on you but I paid $200 for her (what I usually try to spend on my project bikes). Then I started trolling ebay to find parts and saw that the parts I needed were going to cost me an arm and a leg, but also the parts I had were also worth an arm and a leg.... thus my questioning what to do with it (fix or part), since I don't really have thousands to spend in the short term on it and would want to make sure it would be worth it to spend that much over time as a longer term project (I have a wife and 2 little girls so I'm talking a couple years to compile everything to restore it!). So there you have it and now on to finding out more about this bike:

First let's start with the wires: looks like 1 yellowish, 1 yellowish brown, and 1 red wire coming out of the case:



Now for the paint: In looking at it closer I did find underlying matching blue paint on the centerstand and the brake pedal, but see no signs that the frame itself was ever anything other than black. And the tank of course still has the factory orange paint and ducati decals.



I know the shape of the bottom of the tank is also supposed to help in identification so here's that:

[JimF]

Another thing about your bike that is correct and valuable - there are two kinds of 150mph speedometers.... Yours has the correct one for a Mach 1 or Mark 3, it has the ridges encircling the speedometer face.

Here are things you might be missing that could cost you big bucks:

front fender (very rare and hard to find)
Del'Orto SSI29 (not rare, but upwards of $500
Curved kick starter (repros available)
rear set shifter and linkage
curved brake pedal (repros available)

You could leave the USA handlebars but everybody loves the clip-ons (repros available)
toolbox might be hard to find (I just sold one to a guy on the forum, or I would have had one for you.)

I can't see the scallop on the bottom of the tank - but that doesn't mean it's not there

The tank needs work - they all leak around the petcocks like that so for a decent to excellent restoration the tank needs to be worked on.

In today's dollars it would be worth maybe $15K if a 100 point restoration was done. However you could spend more than $10K doing that. And I think that to get the $15K value you would need to use original parts and not reproductions.

You could easily re-sell it for a qucik and healthy profit. As you now know, as Ducati 250s go prices are high, and you have some of the highest priced and most rare of the rare stuff.

I added a photo from the photos page of this site that shows you what this bike would like if completely restored:

Mark3.jpg

It's really worth restoring - but it will probably take several years and many thousands of dollars. Even if you try and fast track it, some parts might take years to find. If it took you five years you may find the bike in 100-point condition would be worth $20K at that point in time. You never know....

But this one is definately the kind to warrant a perfect restoration.

Lots to think about!

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ First I really feel the need to proclaim: "Sebouh ! - Where the heck were you when THIS great Duke treasure-gem was available to be found & had ? "


" So as you can see I'm definitely no "Duker" and was just trolling Craigslist for another cheap old bike to fix and flip "

____ I really think it's too-bad that it wasn't found by a fellow Duker instead, but seeings-how erockson is such an honest-fellow, (as most shyster-types would not have admitted to paying so little), it's quite somewhat fitting that he deserved to be the one to make the discovery/find !
__ As a Duker, I believe it would be a certain shame for a 'restoration' to be done on THIS Duke by a non-Duker, cuz not only would a non-Duker not fully appreciate the utter-pleasure of the act of restoring but also would not really care to do the job to the extreme extent that a true Duker would care to do !
However, I must admit that I don't know erockson at all, and thus can't fairly judge what he himself might get out of the resto.project, of course.
I'm fairly certain that if you-yourself go-forth with the complete restoration-project, then by the time you're done, you will have become a Duker too. _ But if you're sure you don't want such to happen to you, then this is my advice...
Because you're seeming to be such a fine 'bike-flipper' & fellow-biker and have a couple young-ones to look-out for as well, I'm bothering to recommend that you just go for 'the quick-turn-around' and go for a nice investment-payoff by just listing this nice-find on eBay, where you should get (probably at least) 1000 to 2000-bucks for it as is (if you have the original-title with it).


" figured I couldn't go wrong even if I had to part it out "

____ You were right about that even if it had been a common Duke-model ! _ As in that case, you would've likely gotten 2 to 3 times you outlay,, and parting-it-out as the actual model-parts they are, at least double that amount again.


" So I bargained him down from $250 to $200. "

____ What a real steal ! _ I would've been extremely happy to have paid twice the asking-price !


" Then I started trolling ebay to find parts and saw that the parts I needed were going to cost me an arm and a leg, but also the parts I had were also worth an arm and a leg. "

____ O-so-true ! _ That's due to how rare they are and those true-Dukers who REALLY CARE to restore them back to stock !
It can be considered to be real fun for Dukers, but for mere bike-flippers, a certain nightmare of sorts.


" thus my questioning what to do with it (fix or part) "

____ In the case of MOST old Duke finds (of more common DUCATI-models), it's most normally most-profitable to sell all the parts separately on eBay, (unless there happens to be a local Duker in your area who's willing to pay what they're worth). _ But in the case of such rare models as this one you have, it's far more valuable sold all together, than parted-out !!


" since I don't really have thousands to spend in the short term on it and would want to make sure it would be worth it to spend that much over time as a longer term project so I'm talking a couple years to compile everything to restore it! . "

____ I think that realization is enough all on it's own to convince you to realize that this is likely not a 'restoration-project' for the likes of yourself. _ And since you're not an established Duker nor a rather rich Duker-want-to-be type, I thus advise that you really ought to bring your wife into the decision making process on THIS one.
But of course if you actually wish to really involve yourself with it, then I & others here will no-doubt be willing to help you (as just a fellow-biker), through the process of it all ! _ And if that leads you to become another fellow-Duker amongst the rest of us, then that would be just fine ! _ As there could never be too many of us !


" First let's start with the wires: looks like 1 yellowish, 1 yellowish brown, and 1 red wire coming out of the case: "

____ That's how they look when they get dirty/oxidized ! _ Actually those are White; Yellow; & Red .
Those are the proper colors for a normal older/narrow-case '250Mark3' type alternator ! _ Which really doesn't make sense found in a M1-motor ! _ I don't have any standard explanation for that strange match-up, except to conclude that someone (possibly Berliner) had (also?) swapped alternator-models.
And now since this is the case, your Duke is somewhat more of a Mark-3 than a Mach-I .


" Now for the paint: In looking at it closer I did find underlying matching blue paint on the centerstand and the brake pedal, but see no signs that the frame itself was ever anything other than black. "

____ Well so far as I know, all later model n-c Mk3-frames (like yours) were all black ! _ However I-myself have no first-hand experience with any original factory-stock Mach-I models, and don't really know what color they were. _ But I believe I heard tale somewhere that they were blue and were repainted black by Berliner.
The details of that tale might be available from Tom B.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[erockson]

So it seems the consensus is that I'd be in over my head (or maybe more correctly my pocketbook) in trying to get this bike back into shape, which is kind of what I was already figuring but wanted to get the opinion of some experts and also of course wanted to find out what exactly this is that I stumbled across.

I definitely appreciate the history I have learned that is behind these bikes, the passion they obviously inspire, and the detective work it seems is involved in identifying them when they come out of hiding, and it seems we are still not exactly sure what she originally was before it turned into the semi-basketcase that I picked up!

-Justin

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" So it seems the consensus is that I'd be in over my head (or maybe more correctly my pocketbook) in trying to get this bike back into shape, "

____ Well not exactly, Justin ! ... As getting it back into running "shape" is a very far-cry from actual 'restoration' !
If you yourself merely got it back into running-condition, (without repainting & whatnot more personalized work), you could then achieve the greatest investment to profit ratio, (but it would then be best that you kept the fact that you-yourself did the work, unadvertised).
If you could just get it all back together, and better yet get it running as well, that would then get you pretty close to what it's worth without all the extensive & more expensive details which would bring it towards becoming fully restored,, and thus do what your wife would more likely approve of and be more logical to involve yourself with.


" also of course wanted to find out what exactly this is that I stumbled across. "

____ Do you not have it's title which goes with it ?
Anyhow, it certainly seems to be either a Mark-3 or a Mach-I, whichever preferred...
If listed on eBay, you have top-evidence supporting it as a 1966 Mach-I ! _ Which you can claim that someone once thought ought be a Mark-3 and tried to restore as such.


" and the detective work it seems is involved in identifying them when they come out of hiding, and it seems we are still not exactly sure what she originally was "

____ Not absolutely sure without the original title but, I assure you that if the motor-case was factory-stamped "M1", then you have the most desirable/rarest std.production Duke-motor ya could want ! _ AND in the clothing-guise of another highly desirable & rare Duke-model !


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: Jim...
" But this one is definately the kind to warrant a perfect restoration. "

____ Yes indeed ! _ However, if it actually is one of the converted Mach-I models that Berliner had screwed-with, then "perfect restoration" is murky and possibly not possible in-the-eyes of some picky Dukers.
However one thing is certain - it would surely be a big-mistake to part-out such a unique Duke-model ! _ (Except of course in-the-eyes of other 'invested-owners' of like Duke-models !)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[erockson]

Unfortunately any paperwork on this bike is long gone, I'm sure they are somewhere with the carb, the engine side cases and almost all of the engine bolts, the piston, the timing cover, the rearsets (pegs, linkage, and shifter), the kickstarter, and all of the other parts that are keeping me priced out of getting this into even running condition. I just went through the full list of all the parts it needs just to be a runner and with just the 1/2 of it I could actually find on ebay in current or completed auctions I figure I'd be closing in on $2000!